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#21
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hyperfocal settings
In article , Dudley
Hanks wrote: Clearly, the manufacturers of digital cameras ought to have a hyperfocal button or menu pick. It would be very easy for them to do. You may very well be right, but they don't. The workaround is fairly simple. some do. Didn't the Canon DSLR start out with a hyperfocal setting that morphed into the ADEP feature? yep. it was dep and later a-dep, going back to film days. dep worked by taking a reading at the far and near points and the camera figured out the rest. a-dep looks at the focus points and decides what will get everything in focus. it's more automated, which has advantages and disadvantages. |
#22
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hyperfocal settings
On Sat, 22 Jun 2013 08:52:19 +1000, "David Hare-Scott"
wrote: AnthonyL wrote: On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 10:12:59 +1000, "David Hare-Scott" wrote: Once upon a time lenses had guide lines on them that you could use to set the lens so that the selected region was in focus within the limits of the available depth of field. This feature was available on zooms as well as fixed lenses. It is particularly useful for landscapes where you can have the focal plane closer than infinity but get infinity in focus thus having as much of the scene in focus as possible for any given aperture. How do I do that with a lens that has no such focal limit markers on it? Why do lens makers no longer put these markers on? 1) I understand that hyperfocal for film doesn't translate so well to digital I've read such arguments as at http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/19003280 more than once. Google throws up a variety of views. -- AnthonyL |
#23
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hyperfocal settings
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#24
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hyperfocal settings
On 22/06/2013 15:12, me wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 11:14:55 GMT, lid (AnthonyL) wrote: , with a bit of exposure bracketing to give different DOF's Is that some new type of math? How does a scene's exposure effect the DOF? Presumably, bracketing by change of aperture. -- Cheers, David Web: http://www.satsignal.eu |
#25
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hyperfocal settings
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message ... peternew wrote: On 6/21/2013 3:16 PM, BobA wrote: In article , BobA wrote: In article , peternew wrote: [ ... ] Otherwise f16 focused at about 1/3 of infinity is a decent rule of thumb. [ ... ] Clearly, the manufacturers of digital cameras ought to have a hyperfocal button or menu pick. It would be very easy for them to do. You may very well be right, but they don't. The workaround is fairly simple. Carrying a chart about may be simple but to me it is by no means convenient or efficient as I then have to find the chart and my glasses as well as stop to read the bloody thing while the subject or the light conditions are fleeting. I see no reason why I should acquire a hand-held device that does these sums either as I have the same problem with vision AND I am already carrying a device with considerable computing capacity that has access to the required parameters to give me the guidance on want on board without being configured. Building this feature in seems more valuable to me than many of those that are already common. D Have you checked into your cam's landscape mode? It would make sense for the cam to utilize hyperfocal techniques in a mode where people want to maximize DOF... Take Care, Dudley |
#26
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hyperfocal settings
In article , Dudley
Hanks wrote: Have you checked into your cam's landscape mode? It would make sense for the cam to utilize hyperfocal techniques in a mode where people want to maximize DOF... now that you mention it, i think landscape mode does set it to the hyperfocal distance. |
#27
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hyperfocal settings
David Hare-Scott wrote:
Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote: David Hare-Scott wrote: Once upon a time lenses had guide lines on them that you could use to set the lens so that the selected region was in focus within the limits of the available depth of field. This feature was available on zooms as well as fixed lenses. It is particularly useful for landscapes where you can have the focal plane closer than infinity but get infinity in focus thus having as much of the scene in focus as possible for any given aperture. How do I do that with a lens that has no such focal limit markers on it? Why do lens makers no longer put these markers on? DOF depends on not only the focal length and aperture. It also depends on enlargement and viewing distance. With 35mm film most people used around 4x6 inch or a little larger (and if they went much larger, they knew what they did) and the sensor size was known. With digital you get variable sensor sizes (the same lens may be used on FF, APS-crop and 4/3rds sensors, so the same print size means different enlargements) and more and more people using larger and larger display sizes (be it a 12x18 inch print or 100% view). If you had a CoC on the sensor of 0.03mm, that means on print 0.125mm (FF on 4x6 inch) or 0.75mm (4/3rds on 12x18 inch). You'll easily see that at the same viewing distance one will be vastly easier visible than the other. Then comes the fact that people tend to inspect larger prints of good photos more closely ... So in the end, there's no marking a lens maker could reasonably use that's valid for most circumstances: either you stop down much more than you need or stuff will not be in focus enough. You may be right but as you have explained it so far I don't find either of your explanations convincing. On the problem of using lenses intended for one sensor size with another, I see that would have been very rare or impossible with film. With digital if the lensmaker puts the markings on a lens intended for a given format the marks are designed with that in mind and if you mix and match all bets are off. I wouldn't expect a huge number of people using FX lenses on a DX body or the reverse, can you tell me this is common? FX lens on DX body is common. You tell me the 70-200mm lenses are NOT used on crop cameras? What's the alternative for these lenses? Where's the crop 35mm, 50mm, 85mm lenses? So obviously, this *is* common. In fact, up to the (old) 10D there WAS no EF-S for these crop cameras (and the 10D doesn't take EF-S lenses, only EF lenses) so which lenses could one use except for full format EF lenses? Would a manufacturer really leave this feature off in the expectation of people using their lens with a sensor that it wasn't designed for? Lenses are designed for a maximum sensor size, not for a sensor size. On the matter of size of enlargement, the software and charts available to provide this data are configured with the CoC of the sensor and take no account of the size the image will be viewed, although of course one could do that. If you are intending to do large prints then you might need to configure the software differently or to be more conservative with settings, Obviously. or you might rely on the natural behaviour to view the prints from further away. If you shoot only bad photos noone wants to step nearer and inspect some details. A film photograper had to do the same didn't they in how they used the lens markers? It seems to me digital is no different in this respect. Film wasn't enlarged much, as a rule, by the usual consumer. Those that did enlarge more and had viewers looking closer at details couldn't use the DOF markings as is and had to understand that. Digital is routinely viewed at 100% and cropped. I can see that the price and availablilty of large prints may have changed 1980: 28x28 cm: 19.90 DM (poster) (approx 20 EUR @ 2012) 2013: 30x30 cm: 3.00 EUR (poster) (Saal-Digital, a high quality service) Prices fall to 15% ... that's 'a tiny bit' more than "may have changed". the number of these produced but still the majority I see in the output bin at the local print station are 4X6. The majority is no longer printed, but viewed on computer and TV screens. That's easily 15-25" diagonally --- more for TVs, though. These also being interactive means people will often zoom in. These numbers relate mainly to the behaviour of the casual P&S and phone shooter who neither know nor care about CoC. P&S and phones have huge DOF. Phones mostly don't have settable apertures, many P&S cameras don't allow setting the aperture directly, and those that can have often only 2 or 3 stops (from f/4 to f/8 for example (which is approx f/32 or f/44 in full frame camera)) and are often not being used by people. Most P&S cameras don't have DOF markings on the lens (though a few announce DOF distances on their display --- one of mine does, but it's a 4 MPix one and also has inbuild memory, which should tell you the age (2004)) and I know of no phone that has any markings. So ... these camera types are irrelevant as to DOF markings. I would expect those who do know and care would still be assisted by having a reference marker available even if in some situations they had to be conservative in their use. Those who know and care would have a good idea how far the DOF extends for their camera, lenses and enlargement factors. :-) Yes, there used to be a DEP mode with Canon where you'd auto-focus 2 distances and the camera would set the aperture and distance to just include both according to a CoC compromise defined by the manufacturer. -Wolfgang |
#28
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hyperfocal settings
BobA wrote:
In article , BobA wrote: In article , peternew wrote: [ ... ] Otherwise f16 focused at about 1/3 of infinity is a decent rule of thumb. [ ... ] Clearly, the manufacturers of digital cameras ought to have a hyperfocal button or menu pick. It would be very easy for them to do. But which standard of hyperfocal shall they implement? The one "sharp at 100% view"? The one "sharp on a 4x6 print"? -Wolfgang |
#29
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hyperfocal settings
David Hare-Scott wrote:
AnthonyL wrote: On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 10:12:59 +1000, "David Hare-Scott" Once upon a time lenses had guide lines on them that you could use to set the lens so that the selected region was in focus within the limits of the available depth of field. This feature was available on zooms as well as fixed lenses. It is particularly useful for landscapes where you can have the focal plane closer than infinity but get infinity in focus thus having as much of the scene in focus as possible for any given aperture. How do I do that with a lens that has no such focal limit markers on it? Why do lens makers no longer put these markers on? 1) I understand that hyperfocal for film doesn't translate so well to digital Enlargement varies a lot more. 100% view is routine, and larger prints don't cost an arm and a leg any more. -Wolfgang |
#30
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hyperfocal settings
"nospam" wrote in message ... In article , Dudley Hanks wrote: Have you checked into your cam's landscape mode? It would make sense for the cam to utilize hyperfocal techniques in a mode where people want to maximize DOF... now that you mention it, i think landscape mode does set it to the hyperfocal distance. The problem, of course, is that most landscape settings aren't going to yield a RAW image. But, a fellow could set up in landscape, focus, then switch off autofocus and go to manual exposure mode. A bit time-consuming, but it could give the desired results ... Take Care, Dudley |
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