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What exactly is different inside a lens in Macro mode?



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 9th 18, 09:11 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
PeterN[_7_]
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Posts: 1,161
Default What exactly is different inside a lens in Macro mode?

On 6/8/2018 1:22 PM, Sammy wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jun 2018 10:18:35 -0400, Ken Hart wrote:

On 06/08/2018 07:09 AM, Sammy wrote:
What exactly is different about a lens in Macro mode? Does the lens alter
its optics in some way to focus more closely?

My Galaxy S7 lens doesn't seem to have enough space inside to shift any
elements in a different way. Although my point and shoot has a lens which
comes forward and is made of 6 elements in 5 groups. How do these cameras
provide Macro mode?

If a camera can provide close up macro focusing then why isn't it provided
as part of Normal mode?



The simple answer is in order to focus more closely, the lens must be
moved farther away from the focal plane (the film or image sensor). This
is why, in the "old days", we had bellows units (or extension tubes)
that could be fitted between the lens and camera body. A common large
format view camera is designed with a bellows and focusing rail that may
allow the lens to move away from the film sufficiently to give 1:1
magnification.

That's the simple answer, and generally applies to a common single
element convex lens. Very few cameras use a single element convex lens-
the Holga is a common exception.

If you want an exact, specific answer, it will cost you: probably a PhD
in physics and light, and in mechanics. See you back here in six to
eight years!

The cheap and dirty macro method is to get a set of close-up lenses that
mount on the front of your camera lens. I get quite reasonable results
(good enough for eBay) by holding a +2 close-up lens in front of my
point & shoot camera. I get exceptional results by mounting a bellows or
extension tubes on my 35mm SLR and using a macro lens.


Thanks for the answer. My smartphone camera and my point and shoot don't
seem to have any arrangement to move lenses further out or do much anything
different.

Is Macro mode on such cameras essentially a con because their Normal mode
can focus as close as macro mode?


It depends. For example, I use a Nikon 105 f2.8 micro. It does not open
as wide as 2.8 on my cameras. Here's a link to a discussion of the issue:
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/2248343



--
PeterN
  #12  
Old June 9th 18, 09:17 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
PeterN[_7_]
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Posts: 1,161
Default What exactly is different inside a lens in Macro mode?

On 6/9/2018 3:30 AM, newshound wrote:
On 09/06/2018 06:48, David Taylor wrote:
On 08/06/2018 12:09, Sammy wrote:
What exactly is different about a lens in Macro mode?Â* Does the lens
alter
its optics in some way to focus more closely?

My Galaxy S7 lens doesn't seem to have enough space inside to shift any
elements in a different way.Â* Although my point and shoot has a lens
which
comes forward and is made of 6 elements in 5 groups.Â* How do these
cameras
provide Macro mode?

If a camera can provide close up macro focusing then why isn't it
provided
as part of Normal mode?


In some cases, it's because it would slow down focussing if the
software had to search from a very close macro out to infinity each
time to determine the best focus point.Â* In other cases - e.g. a macro
lens for a interchangeable lens camera - the lens may be designed to
work best when focussing close (have fewer imperfections), and of
course it has that closer focussing range.

Agreed, also reduces the risk of the camera trying to focus on something
between the lens and subject, like wire fencing, window glass, or even
raindrops on the front element. I don't know whether my canon compacts
also shift an internal element in macro mode, but they certainly do a
remarkably good job.

That is only part of the reason my 80-400 can be easily set not not
focus closer than 6m, and my 70-200 can be set not to focus closer than
2.5m..

--
PeterN
  #13  
Old June 12th 18, 02:04 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
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Posts: 24,165
Default What exactly is different inside a lens in Macro mode?

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

My smartphone camera and my point and shoot don't
seem to have any arrangement to move lenses further out or do much
anything different.


not all lenses do because macro is nowhere near as common as ordinary
photos.

Is Macro mode on such cameras essentially a con because their Normal mode
can focus as close as macro mode?


no, and it can't.

if you want to do macro with a lens that lacks a macro setting or can't
focus close enough, get a closeup lens attachment.


an alternative method was to reverse the lens,


that won't work for cellphones or point & shoot cameras, which is what
the original poster has.
  #14  
Old June 12th 18, 03:23 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default What exactly is different inside a lens in Macro mode?

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

My smartphone camera and my point and shoot don't
seem to have any arrangement to move lenses further out or do much
anything different.

not all lenses do because macro is nowhere near as common as ordinary
photos.

Is Macro mode on such cameras essentially a con because their Normal
mode
can focus as close as macro mode?

no, and it can't.

if you want to do macro with a lens that lacks a macro setting or can't
focus close enough, get a closeup lens attachment.

an alternative method was to reverse the lens,


that won't work for cellphones or point & shoot cameras, which is what
the original poster has.


He wasn;t asking to be able to do it but was asking why he can't which is
differnt,


he mentioned cameras he had, ones where reversing the lens is not
possible.

the overall cheapst method is to use a water droplet on the 'lens'
of a cellphone camera,


that's only cheap for a few seconds.

then, when the phone stops working due to water ingress, it becomes
very expensive.

not all phones are water resistant.

it's probbaly not practical on a P&S unless you can
get a really big droplet on the lens.


even less likely to be water resistant.

closeup lenses are cheap, although the better ones not so much.
  #15  
Old June 12th 18, 04:27 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
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Posts: 24,165
Default What exactly is different inside a lens in Macro mode?

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

I doubt his P&S will work with a closeup lens anyway as it doesnlt have any
moving elemnts so would be very difficult to focus.


the lenses on p&s cameras definitely have moving elements, making it
trivial to not only focus, but also zoom. some might even have a macro
setting.

the problem is that not all p&s cameras allow for easily mounting
anything in front of the lens. however, there's always duct tape

for phones, it's easy to add a closeup lens. it just clips on:
https://d3nj7353mvgauu.cloudfront.ne...roducts/macro-
21x-lens-8-7-black-12-130e/4a75583da68f23aa000fff7ea084dd03.jpg
  #16  
Old June 12th 18, 04:42 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default What exactly is different inside a lens in Macro mode?

In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

I doubt his P&S will work with a closeup lens anyway as it doesnlt have
any moving elemnts so would be very difficult to focus.


the lenses on p&s cameras definitely have moving elements,


Not all of them do, the cheaper ones don't.


just about all of them do, including the cheaper ones.

making it
trivial to not only focus, but also zoom. some might even have a macro
setting.


dependiong on what's meant by macro.


it might not be 1:1 (or bigger), but most people don't need that.

the problem is that not all p&s cameras allow for easily mounting
anything in front of the lens.


I know.

however, there's always duct tape


Not something I'd use due to the residue left and the mess it'd make.


no residue or mess needed.

for phones, it's easy to add a closeup lens. it just clips on:
https://d3nj7353mvgauu.cloudfront.ne...roducts/macro-
21x-lens-8-7-black-12-130e/4a75583da68f23aa000fff7ea084dd03.jpg


provided you have the right one for the camera.
But then again you can use virtually any sort of lens a magnifying glass will do.


only if quality is not a goal.
  #17  
Old June 12th 18, 06:17 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
PeterN[_7_]
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Posts: 1,161
Default What exactly is different inside a lens in Macro mode?

On 6/12/2018 11:42 AM, nospam wrote:
In article ,
Whisky-dave wrote:

I doubt his P&S will work with a closeup lens anyway as it doesnlt have
any moving elemnts so would be very difficult to focus.

the lenses on p&s cameras definitely have moving elements,


Not all of them do, the cheaper ones don't.


just about all of them do, including the cheaper ones.

making it
trivial to not only focus, but also zoom. some might even have a macro
setting.


dependiong on what's meant by macro.


it might not be 1:1 (or bigger), but most people don't need that.

the problem is that not all p&s cameras allow for easily mounting
anything in front of the lens.


I know.

however, there's always duct tape


Not something I'd use due to the residue left and the mess it'd make.


no residue or mess needed.

for phones, it's easy to add a closeup lens. it just clips on:
https://d3nj7353mvgauu.cloudfront.ne...roducts/macro-
21x-lens-8-7-black-12-130e/4a75583da68f23aa000fff7ea084dd03.jpg


provided you have the right one for the camera.
But then again you can use virtually any sort of lens a magnifying glass will do.


only if quality is not a goal.

I was going to stay out of this, but feel an obligation to those who
might not be familiar with macro.
An adapter that adds a piece of glass usually does not result in a high
quality macro lens. Some, clip on lenses for the iPhone can produce a
reasonably decent quality image. If you do your research, you will see
which ones work for you. Similarly, some close up attachments for a P&S
camera may, give you a satisfactory image, but that is not very likely.
Most inexpensive P&S cameras don't have high quality sensors or glass.
Again, do your research, as you will find that some P&S cameras will
give you what you want.



--
PeterN
  #18  
Old June 12th 18, 06:37 PM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default What exactly is different inside a lens in Macro mode?

In article , PeterN
wrote:

An adapter that adds a piece of glass usually does not result in a high
quality macro lens. Some, clip on lenses for the iPhone can produce a
reasonably decent quality image. If you do your research, you will see
which ones work for you. Similarly, some close up attachments for a P&S
camera may, give you a satisfactory image, but that is not very likely.


unless the camera's lens can be removed and replaced with an actual
macro lens, something which is highly unlikely on a p&s, a closeup lens
is the only viable option.

as with everything, there's a range in quality, with the better closeup
lenses producing very good, if not excellent results.

among the better options is the canon 500d, a *two* element closeup
lens (versus the usual cheaper one element). not surprisingly, it's not
cheap, and like other closeup lenses, it attaches on the front of the
lens so it will work with nikon, sony and other lenses, not just canon.

https://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/77mm-close-up-lens-500d

Most inexpensive P&S cameras don't have high quality sensors or glass.
Again, do your research, as you will find that some P&S cameras will
give you what you want.


that part is true, but someone buying a p&s is more concerned with
convenience than quality. in other words, it's 'good enough'.
  #19  
Old June 13th 18, 02:13 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
PeterN[_7_]
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Posts: 1,161
Default What exactly is different inside a lens in Macro mode?

On 6/12/2018 1:37 PM, nospam wrote:
In article , PeterN
wrote:

An adapter that adds a piece of glass usually does not result in a high
quality macro lens. Some, clip on lenses for the iPhone can produce a
reasonably decent quality image. If you do your research, you will see
which ones work for you. Similarly, some close up attachments for a P&S
camera may, give you a satisfactory image, but that is not very likely.


unless the camera's lens can be removed and replaced with an actual
macro lens, something which is highly unlikely on a p&s, a closeup lens
is the only viable option.

as with everything, there's a range in quality, with the better closeup
lenses producing very good, if not excellent results.

among the better options is the canon 500d, a *two* element closeup
lens (versus the usual cheaper one element). not surprisingly, it's not
cheap, and like other closeup lenses, it attaches on the front of the
lens so it will work with nikon, sony and other lenses, not just canon.

https://shop.usa.canon.com/shop/en/catalog/77mm-close-up-lens-500d


It's 77mm and not terrible. Some of my friends have used it on crop
frame DSLRs, and then decided to either use an extension tube or a macro
lens. I have no idea about the quality on a cheap P&S. My guess is that
if the user is happy with a cheap P&S he may very well be happy with it.
If the user has a high quality P&S, it most likely has a macro mode, and
the auxiliary glass will not be needed. Although I have some fairly high
end glass and bodies, I still use my very old Nikon 8800. I converted it
for IR only. The main reason I stopped using it was that the shutter lag
was irritating me. For that reason I will probably convert another body
to IR. I just haven't decided which IR conversion I prefer.

Most inexpensive P&S cameras don't have high quality sensors or glass.
Again, do your research, as you will find that some P&S cameras will
give you what you want.


that part is true, but someone buying a p&s is more concerned with
convenience than quality. in other words, it's 'good enough'.


Probability true for many, if not most people. I have seen some superb
macro work from some P&S shooters. Admittedly, that is the exception.
For macro work, the smaller sensor size will give a grater DOF than a
FF. But, you must know what you are doing.
I have also seen some superb macro work where the photographer used an
iPhone 8; 8+; or X. Of course he uses a high quality clip on lens.
BTW if you want to experiment with using a water drop on an iPhone lens,
try a drop of glycerin instead. It is much less likely to damage your
phone, and does not evaporate as quickly. Of course, nobody with any
knowledge of optics would consider that technique for a realistic and
predicable result. For artistic purposes, it might give you an
interesting image. I have never tried it, but might with someone else's
phone. And then, only with their informed consent of the risk.


--
PeterN
  #20  
Old June 13th 18, 03:28 AM posted to rec.photo.digital
nospam
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24,165
Default What exactly is different inside a lens in Macro mode?

In article , PeterN
wrote:


Most inexpensive P&S cameras don't have high quality sensors or glass.
Again, do your research, as you will find that some P&S cameras will
give you what you want.


that part is true, but someone buying a p&s is more concerned with
convenience than quality. in other words, it's 'good enough'.


Probability true for many, if not most people. I have seen some superb
macro work from some P&S shooters. Admittedly, that is the exception.


not really, assuming they're trying.

if they're just snapping without knowing what they're doing, then
anything good will be the exception, macro or otherwise.

For macro work, the smaller sensor size will give a grater DOF than a
FF.


myth.

dof is the same for the same image quality.

But, you must know what you are doing.


as with everything.

I have also seen some superb macro work where the photographer used an
iPhone 8; 8+; or X. Of course he uses a high quality clip on lens.
BTW if you want to experiment with using a water drop on an iPhone lens,
try a drop of glycerin instead. It is much less likely to damage your
phone, and does not evaporate as quickly. Of course, nobody with any
knowledge of optics would consider that technique for a realistic and
predicable result. For artistic purposes, it might give you an
interesting image. I have never tried it, but might with someone else's
phone. And then, only with their informed consent of the risk.


get a burner phone.

it can even have a bad esn if all you're going to do is take photos
with it.
 




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