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Aperture limits with high shutter speeds in Panasonic FZ20



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 18th 05, 12:58 PM
Jan Böhme
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Default Aperture limits with high shutter speeds in Panasonic FZ20

I recently bought a Panasonic FZ20, which I, by and large, am very
pleased with. (Blown highlights seem much more of a problem than with
my CP995, but they seem to be minimised by setting "Contrast" to low,
and exposure compensation to -2/3 when photographing essentially any
subject in sunlight.)

But one remaining peeve is that my camera behaves in a way that seems
illogic to me at high shutter speeds. Maximal shutter speed in all
modes other than shutter priority is 1/1000. In shutter priority, one
can go up to 1/2000.

However, as one decreases the shutter time beyound 1/1000, an aperture
limit is introduced. At 1/1300, the widest accepted aperture is f4.0,
at 1/1600, it is f5.6, and at 2000, it is f8.0, the minimal aperture
of the camera. The manual - at least my Swedish version - doesn't say
a word about any such aperture limitations when it discusses the
shutter priority mode, though.

To me, this means that two of the three possible uses for high shutter
speeds are disabled. You can´t use it to get a shallow DOF at high
light intensity, and you can't use it to stop a very fast movement in
less-than-very-intense light. The only thing that remains is the
capacity to take properly exposed photos in very intense light - which
would have been equally well catered for by instead including an f11
aperture and doing away with the 1/1000+ shutter times altogether.

Is this the way the camera is supposed to work - which means that I
basically should regard it as a camera with 1/1000 as its fastest
shutter speed and some limited additional capacity to expose properly
in very intense light - or should I complain to the vendor?

And if it is the intended way it works, does anyone kow why on earth
this is so? Is it there in the FZ5? And is there, by any chance,
hacked firmwares around also for the Panasonic FZ series? :-)

Jan Böhme
Korrekta personuppgifter är att betrakta som journalistik.
Felaktigheter utgör naturligtvis skönlitteratur.
  #2  
Old July 18th 05, 02:19 PM
David J Taylor
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Default

Jan Böhme wrote:
I recently bought a Panasonic FZ20, which I, by and large, am very
pleased with. (Blown highlights seem much more of a problem than with
my CP995, but they seem to be minimised by setting "Contrast" to low,
and exposure compensation to -2/3 when photographing essentially any
subject in sunlight.)

But one remaining peeve is that my camera behaves in a way that seems
illogic to me at high shutter speeds. Maximal shutter speed in all
modes other than shutter priority is 1/1000. In shutter priority, one
can go up to 1/2000.

However, as one decreases the shutter time beyound 1/1000, an aperture
limit is introduced. At 1/1300, the widest accepted aperture is f4.0,
at 1/1600, it is f5.6, and at 2000, it is f8.0, the minimal aperture
of the camera. The manual - at least my Swedish version - doesn't say
a word about any such aperture limitations when it discusses the
shutter priority mode, though.

To me, this means that two of the three possible uses for high shutter
speeds are disabled. You can´t use it to get a shallow DOF at high
light intensity, and you can't use it to stop a very fast movement in
less-than-very-intense light. The only thing that remains is the
capacity to take properly exposed photos in very intense light - which
would have been equally well catered for by instead including an f11
aperture and doing away with the 1/1000+ shutter times altogether.

Is this the way the camera is supposed to work - which means that I
basically should regard it as a camera with 1/1000 as its fastest
shutter speed and some limited additional capacity to expose properly
in very intense light - or should I complain to the vendor?

And if it is the intended way it works, does anyone kow why on earth
this is so? Is it there in the FZ5? And is there, by any chance,
hacked firmwares around also for the Panasonic FZ series? :-)


I think the FZ5 is similar. My guess is that there is a physical limit to
how fast the aperture can be stopped down, which can limit the shutter
speed with small apertures (where the aperture has its greatest movement
from fully open to stopped down). Won't a neutral-density filter help
with the DoF issue? The problem with including apertures lower than f/8
is that diffraction starts to be an issue, and the resulting image will be
less sharp.

I think you can get an English language manual he
http://panasonic.com.au/content/libr...es/F000741.pdf

Does the camera work as described in the specifications? If so, it's not
faulty.

I haven't heard of any hacked firmware.

Cheers,
David


  #3  
Old July 18th 05, 02:35 PM
Daniel Silevitch
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On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:58:45 +0200, Jan Böhme wrote:

However, as one decreases the shutter time beyound 1/1000, an aperture
limit is introduced. At 1/1300, the widest accepted aperture is f4.0,
at 1/1600, it is f5.6, and at 2000, it is f8.0, the minimal aperture
of the camera. The manual - at least my Swedish version - doesn't say
a word about any such aperture limitations when it discusses the
shutter priority mode, though.


[...]

And if it is the intended way it works, does anyone kow why on earth
this is so? Is it there in the FZ5? And is there, by any chance,
hacked firmwares around also for the Panasonic FZ series? :-)


I have an FZ5, and it behaves the same way. The behavior is documented
in the manual (English version), which has a table of allowed apertures
for a given shutter speed, and also a somewhat redundant second table of
allowed shutter speeds for a given aperture.

I don't know why it was designed that way, but my guess is that there's
a limit to the cycle speed of the shutter mechanism, and that speed is
insufficient to mask the larger apertures in the shorter exposure times.

-dms
  #4  
Old July 18th 05, 09:35 PM
measekite
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Posts: n/a
Default

If this causes a problem should I more strongly consider buying a Canon
S2 over a Pan FZ5?

Jan Böhme wrote:

I recently bought a Panasonic FZ20, which I, by and large, am very
pleased with. (Blown highlights seem much more of a problem than with
my CP995, but they seem to be minimised by setting "Contrast" to low,
and exposure compensation to -2/3 when photographing essentially any
subject in sunlight.)

But one remaining peeve is that my camera behaves in a way that seems
illogic to me at high shutter speeds. Maximal shutter speed in all
modes other than shutter priority is 1/1000. In shutter priority, one
can go up to 1/2000.

However, as one decreases the shutter time beyound 1/1000, an aperture
limit is introduced. At 1/1300, the widest accepted aperture is f4.0,
at 1/1600, it is f5.6, and at 2000, it is f8.0, the minimal aperture
of the camera. The manual - at least my Swedish version - doesn't say
a word about any such aperture limitations when it discusses the
shutter priority mode, though.

To me, this means that two of the three possible uses for high shutter
speeds are disabled. You can´t use it to get a shallow DOF at high
light intensity, and you can't use it to stop a very fast movement in
less-than-very-intense light. The only thing that remains is the
capacity to take properly exposed photos in very intense light - which
would have been equally well catered for by instead including an f11
aperture and doing away with the 1/1000+ shutter times altogether.

Is this the way the camera is supposed to work - which means that I
basically should regard it as a camera with 1/1000 as its fastest
shutter speed and some limited additional capacity to expose properly
in very intense light - or should I complain to the vendor?

And if it is the intended way it works, does anyone kow why on earth
this is so? Is it there in the FZ5? And is there, by any chance,
hacked firmwares around also for the Panasonic FZ series? :-)

Jan Böhme
Korrekta personuppgifter är att betrakta som journalistik.
Felaktigheter utgör naturligtvis skönlitteratur.


  #5  
Old July 18th 05, 09:39 PM
David J Taylor
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measekite wrote:
If this causes a problem should I more strongly consider buying a
Canon S2 over a Pan FZ5?


In real life this is not a problem. I am sure that the Canon will also
have quirks.

David


  #6  
Old July 18th 05, 10:32 PM
Daniel Silevitch
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On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:35:21 GMT, measekite wrote:
Jan Böhme wrote:

However, as one decreases the shutter time beyound 1/1000, an aperture
limit is introduced. At 1/1300, the widest accepted aperture is f4.0,
at 1/1600, it is f5.6, and at 2000, it is f8.0, the minimal aperture
of the camera. The manual - at least my Swedish version - doesn't say
a word about any such aperture limitations when it discusses the
shutter priority mode, though.


If this causes a problem should I more strongly consider buying a Canon
S2 over a Pan FZ5?



The S2 IS does the same thing, at least according to some of the reviews
I saw.

Looks up S2 IS manual on web
Yep.

From pg 86 of the Canon manual:
Aperture Fastest Shutter
f/2.7-3.5 1/1600
f/4.0-5.0 1/2000
f/5.6-7.1 1/2500
f/8.0 1/3200

That's at the wide end of the zoom. At maximum telephoto, it slows down:
Aperture Fastest Shutter
f/3.5-4.5 1/1600
f/5.0-6.3 1/2000
f/7.1-8.0 1/2500

The Panasonic has a slower shutter speed (maxing out at 1/2000), but the
speed limitations are independent of the zoom setting.

-dms
  #7  
Old July 19th 05, 01:31 AM
measekite
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It appears, unless I do not have all of the information that the S2 and FZ5
are close. Some people have stated that the skin tones on the Canon are
better and more realistic while the FZ5 may be better on scenery. I
would like to know if that is true since skin tones are very important
to me.

Other than that I think I am going to choose the one that just feels
better in my hand. If they are the same then I need to choose between
an all black one or a swivel LCD.

I know the FZ5 is lighter but will that make that much of a difference
when comparted with the S2.

I do here that the FZ5 is faster in burst mode, exposure bracketing, and
auto focusing. That would see to be an advantage but I do not know how
much importance to give that.

If I opt for the FZ5 I will get it at the end of the summer. But if I
opt for the Canon I will probably wait until the end of the year when
the price may come down.

Your comments are welcome.







Daniel Silevitch wrote:

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:35:21 GMT, measekite wrote:


Jan Böhme wrote:


However, as one decreases the shutter time beyound 1/1000, an aperture
limit is introduced. At 1/1300, the widest accepted aperture is f4.0,
at 1/1600, it is f5.6, and at 2000, it is f8.0, the minimal aperture
of the camera. The manual - at least my Swedish version - doesn't say
a word about any such aperture limitations when it discusses the
shutter priority mode, though.





If this causes a problem should I more strongly consider buying a Canon
S2 over a Pan FZ5?




The S2 IS does the same thing, at least according to some of the reviews
I saw.

Looks up S2 IS manual on web
Yep.

From pg 86 of the Canon manual:
Aperture Fastest Shutter
f/2.7-3.5 1/1600
f/4.0-5.0 1/2000
f/5.6-7.1 1/2500
f/8.0 1/3200

That's at the wide end of the zoom. At maximum telephoto, it slows down:
Aperture Fastest Shutter
f/3.5-4.5 1/1600
f/5.0-6.3 1/2000
f/7.1-8.0 1/2500

The Panasonic has a slower shutter speed (maxing out at 1/2000), but the
speed limitations are independent of the zoom setting.

-dms


  #8  
Old July 19th 05, 08:27 AM
David J Taylor
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measekite wrote:
[]
If I opt for the FZ5 I will get it at the end of the summer. But if I
opt for the Canon I will probably wait until the end of the year when
the price may come down.

Your comments are welcome.


Go and get something now!

If you wait until the end of the year there will undoubtedly be even more
similar cameras to confuse the choice further! Why miss out on your
summer pictures?

David


  #9  
Old July 19th 05, 03:38 PM
Dave Martindale
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Jan Böhme writes:

However, as one decreases the shutter time beyound 1/1000, an aperture
limit is introduced. At 1/1300, the widest accepted aperture is f4.0,
at 1/1600, it is f5.6, and at 2000, it is f8.0, the minimal aperture
of the camera. The manual - at least my Swedish version - doesn't say
a word about any such aperture limitations when it discusses the
shutter priority mode, though.


Some of the Canon P&S cameras (e.g. G2) have a similar limitation. It's
because a single mechanism is used as the shutter and aperture. The
blades take a certain amount of time to reach full opening, and that
limits the full-aperture shutter speed. If you're willing to accept a
smaller aperture, you can get a shorter exposure too. This helps the
camera deal with very bright lighting, but doesn't let you use full
aperture at maximum speed.

The alternative, with that shutter mechanism, is to limit the highest
speed to 1/1000. Would that make you happier? Probably not. (Canon
does document these limits in the manual).

To me, this means that two of the three possible uses for high shutter
speeds are disabled. You can´t use it to get a shallow DOF at high
light intensity, and you can't use it to stop a very fast movement in
less-than-very-intense light.


If you want very fast shutter speeds at full aperture, you need a focal
plane shutter and separate aperture mechanism. In other words, you need
a SLR. This limitation of leaf shutters is not unique to digital
cameras.

The only thing that remains is the
capacity to take properly exposed photos in very intense light - which
would have been equally well catered for by instead including an f11
aperture and doing away with the 1/1000+ shutter times altogether.


No, because at f/8 the image is already losing sharpness due to
diffraction in any of the small-sensor P&S cameras. A higher shutter
speed at f/8 will give you a sharper image. You've already got enormous
DOF at f/8, so there's no reason at all to want f/11.

Is this the way the camera is supposed to work - which means that I
basically should regard it as a camera with 1/1000 as its fastest
shutter speed and some limited additional capacity to expose properly
in very intense light - or should I complain to the vendor?


It's limited by some basic physics applying to that type of camera, with
a small in-the-lens shutter and small sensor.

Dave
  #10  
Old July 19th 05, 05:11 PM
measekite
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David J Taylor wrote:

measekite wrote:
[]


If I opt for the FZ5 I will get it at the end of the summer. But if I
opt for the Canon I will probably wait until the end of the year when
the price may come down.

Your comments are welcome.



Go and get something now!

If you wait until the end of the year there will undoubtedly be even more
similar cameras to confuse the choice further! Why miss out on your
summer pictures?

David



Even though I do not like it I have the use of a Sony 4mp digital camera
that does produce reasonable results. I also have a Nikon system.




 




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