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nospam November 9th 17 01:49 PM

Ripe Apples
 
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

It might be
an ugly SoB but that was largely because it was designed to hold a
wide variety of hardware which could be installed or replaced without
the use of any tools whatsoever.


it need not be ugly to do that.


It was Whisky-dave who said it was ugly.


he's right.

I don't think it was ugly but
it was what it was and it was extremely utilitarian.


in other words, boring.

I could swap
drives in it in a fraction of the time it took me to do the same task
in the Dell which followed it.


if all you do is open it and swap drives, then that's the computer to
get.

meanwhile, the rest of the world wants to do actual work, not open up
their computer and swap parts all day long.

Alan Browne November 9th 17 02:44 PM

Ripe Apples
 
On 2017-11-09 07:49, nospam wrote:


meanwhile, the rest of the world wants to do actual work, not open
up their computer and swap parts all day long.


The usual asshat reply from nospam. People don't "swap parts all day
long". They do it when needed from time to time.

When a drive is failing, failed or not large enough it is trivial to
remove and replace. About 10 minutes with most desktops.

On a current iMac it can easily take an hour or more. Tedious. And no
reason to make it so difficult other than the Apple aesthetic.

nospam November 9th 17 03:03 PM

Ripe Apples
 
In article , Alan Browne
wrote:

meanwhile, the rest of the world wants to do actual work, not open
up their computer and swap parts all day long.


The usual asshat reply from nospam. People don't "swap parts all day
long". They do it when needed from time to time.


actually, they don't. the vast majority of users have someone else
repair their computer, just as they do with their cars, tvs and other
products.

When a drive is failing, failed or not large enough it is trivial to
remove and replace. About 10 minutes with most desktops.


only if someone has the skills and tools.

while readers of usenet might, the general public is not going to open
up a computer to swap a hard drive.

On a current iMac it can easily take an hour or more. Tedious. And no
reason to make it so difficult other than the Apple aesthetic.


the reason is that opening a computer is rarely done, if ever, and
optimizing for that scenario stupid.

it makes a lot more sense to optimize a computer for every day use,
versus something that *might* happen.

some cars have the battery in the wheel well, requiring a wheel to be
removed just to swap the battery. since car batteries usually last 5-10
years, that's a very good design decision.

PeterN[_7_] November 9th 17 07:08 PM

Ripe Apples
 
On 11/9/2017 9:03 AM, nospam wrote:
In article , Alan Browne
wrote:

meanwhile, the rest of the world wants to do actual work, not open
up their computer and swap parts all day long.


The usual asshat reply from nospam. People don't "swap parts all day
long". They do it when needed from time to time.


actually, they don't. the vast majority of users have someone else
repair their computer, just as they do with their cars, tvs and other
products.

When a drive is failing, failed or not large enough it is trivial to
remove and replace. About 10 minutes with most desktops.


only if someone has the skills and tools.


Most people I know have the necessary screwdrivers. If not, they are
available at their local hardware store, for very little money. It is
trivial to open the box and add a drive, or memory. I have someone else
do it, because of a physical limitation. When I tell a repair guy what I
want, and stand there and watch, the time to repair is short, and the
price is very reasonable.


while readers of usenet might, the general public is not going to open
up a computer to swap a hard drive.






On a current iMac it can easily take an hour or more. Tedious. And no
reason to make it so difficult other than the Apple aesthetic.


the reason is that opening a computer is rarely done, if ever, and
optimizing for that scenario stupid.


By that reasoning, all PC box manufacturers and assemblers, including HP
and Dell are run by stupid people.


it makes a lot more sense to optimize a computer for every day use,
versus something that *might* happen.

some cars have the battery in the wheel well, requiring a wheel to be
removed just to swap the battery. since car batteries usually last 5-10
years, that's a very good design decision.

Ah! more vague advice from the world's best industrial designer.


--
PeterN

nospam November 9th 17 07:58 PM

Ripe Apples
 
In article , PeterN
wrote:

meanwhile, the rest of the world wants to do actual work, not open
up their computer and swap parts all day long.

The usual asshat reply from nospam. People don't "swap parts all day
long". They do it when needed from time to time.


actually, they don't. the vast majority of users have someone else
repair their computer, just as they do with their cars, tvs and other
products.

When a drive is failing, failed or not large enough it is trivial to
remove and replace. About 10 minutes with most desktops.


only if someone has the skills and tools.


Most people I know have the necessary screwdrivers. If not, they are
available at their local hardware store, for very little money. It is
trivial to open the box and add a drive, or memory.


trivial for you and me.

trivial for the average consumer, not so much.

I have someone else
do it, because of a physical limitation.


so it doesn't actually matter. you're making my point.

When I tell a repair guy what I
want, and stand there and watch, the time to repair is short, and the
price is very reasonable.


not all repairs are that quick and not all places will let you watch.

try that at an auto repair shop.

while readers of usenet might, the general public is not going to open
up a computer to swap a hard drive.


^^^^^


On a current iMac it can easily take an hour or more. Tedious. And no
reason to make it so difficult other than the Apple aesthetic.


the reason is that opening a computer is rarely done, if ever, and
optimizing for that scenario stupid.


By that reasoning, all PC box manufacturers and assemblers, including HP
and Dell are run by stupid people.


pretty much, and a very accurate assessment of dell.

hp has a few interesting products, such as the spectre and yoga, but
otherwise, it's the same old boring stuff.

it makes a lot more sense to optimize a computer for every day use,
versus something that *might* happen.

some cars have the battery in the wheel well, requiring a wheel to be
removed just to swap the battery. since car batteries usually last 5-10
years, that's a very good design decision.

Ah! more vague advice from the world's best industrial designer.


more insults and there's nothing vague about it.

Eric Stevens November 9th 17 09:50 PM

Ripe Apples
 
On Thu, 09 Nov 2017 07:49:00 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

It might be
an ugly SoB but that was largely because it was designed to hold a
wide variety of hardware which could be installed or replaced without
the use of any tools whatsoever.

it need not be ugly to do that.


It was Whisky-dave who said it was ugly.


he's right.


It didn't matter. It was out of sight under my desk.

I don't think it was ugly but
it was what it was and it was extremely utilitarian.


in other words, boring.


But practical.

I could swap
drives in it in a fraction of the time it took me to do the same task
in the Dell which followed it.


if all you do is open it and swap drives, then that's the computer to
get.


Two thumbscrews to get the side panel off. Unplug the drive. Flip the
lock open on the drive mount and slide out the drive. Slide in the new
drive, flip the lock closed, plug in the drive, refit the cover and
screws. An easy 10 minutes from power off to power on.

meanwhile, the rest of the world wants to do actual work, not open up
their computer and swap parts all day long.


I used to do that when I got bored. To add to the excitement I never
knew which drive did what and the behaviour on startup was quite a fun
lottery.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

Alan Browne November 9th 17 09:53 PM

Ripe Apples
 
On 2017-11-09 08:51, Whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 9 November 2017 13:44:50 UTC, Alan Browne wrote:
On 2017-11-09 07:49, nospam wrote:


meanwhile, the rest of the world wants to do actual work, not
open up their computer and swap parts all day long.


The usual asshat reply from nospam. People don't "swap parts all
day long". They do it when needed from time to time.

When a drive is failing, failed or not large enough it is trivial
to remove and replace. About 10 minutes with most desktops.


And most people don;t have desktops and even if they do an external
drive can be plugged in and used in far less than 10 mins and without
the use of any tools.


Sub optimal performance, however. Although with newer serial
interfaces, less so.

IAC I suspect my next Mac will be 100% SSD.



On a current iMac it can easily take an hour or more. Tedious.
And no reason to make it so difficult other than the Apple
aesthetic.


Which lots of people prefer otherwise they'd be buying PC desktops
wouldn't they.


I'm on my 2nd iMac (and have various Macbooks/Airs here and at work).
I replaced the HD in less than an hour on the first one. Under
warranty. It was too much hassle to go through the Apple repair
service. (evaluation, estimate, repair: 5 - 10 business days. Screw that).

2nd iMac I'd budget 2 hours and I'd have iFixIt send me the gasket kit
first.

When I had PC's (including laptops) it took 10 - 15 minutes. Tops. Did
that many times over the years.

The fact that my iMac has a very thin bezel and looks nifty actually
contributes nothing to what it does for me as a computer. Since they
located the HD near the back shell it would have been trivial to have a
port there that could be opened. But they don't. (They do for RAM).

That said I don't see ever going back to a Windows PC. Linux as a
desktop environment is a disaster.

I could rebel and load Mac OS on a high end PC, but that brings a
maintenance "load" with it best left by the side of the road.

Alan Browne November 9th 17 09:59 PM

Ripe Apples
 
On 2017-11-09 09:03, nospam wrote:
In article , Alan
Browne wrote:

meanwhile, the rest of the world wants to do actual work, not
open up their computer and swap parts all day long.


The usual asshat reply from nospam. People don't "swap parts all
day long". They do it when needed from time to time.


actually, they don't. the vast majority of users have someone else
repair their computer, just as they do with their cars, tvs and
other products.


A nonsense reply of convenience.

Having it so a user can maintain and repair it doesn't prevent people
from getting it repaired elsewhere.

When a drive is failing, failed or not large enough it is trivial
to remove and replace. About 10 minutes with most desktops.


only if someone has the skills and tools.


A couple screwdrivers. The skills are fairly low end and there a
gazillion sites showing how to do it elsewise. IOW another nonsense
reply of convenience from you.


while readers of usenet might, the general public is not going to
open up a computer to swap a hard drive.


Perhaps. But why not make it easier for those who will. Indeed make it
easier for the "pros" (including Apple) who do it? Again and again your
replies are nonsense convenience reasons.


On a current iMac it can easily take an hour or more. Tedious.
And no reason to make it so difficult other than the Apple
aesthetic.


the reason is that opening a computer is rarely done, if ever, and
optimizing for that scenario stupid.


Not at all. Many things are designed for maintainability and capability
growth w/o making them more expensive. It's your usual nonsense reply
of convenience.


it makes a lot more sense to optimize a computer for every day use,
versus something that *might* happen.

some cars have the battery in the wheel well, requiring a wheel to
be removed just to swap the battery. since car batteries usually last
5-10 years, that's a very good design decision.


No, it's a horrible decision. Batteries here rarely last 5 years due to
the harsh winters. Having to remove a wheel to even examine a battery
for its condition is absolute stupidity. I see why you admire it.

Eric Stevens November 9th 17 10:03 PM

Ripe Apples
 
On Thu, 09 Nov 2017 09:03:18 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Alan Browne
wrote:

meanwhile, the rest of the world wants to do actual work, not open
up their computer and swap parts all day long.


The usual asshat reply from nospam. People don't "swap parts all day
long". They do it when needed from time to time.


actually, they don't. the vast majority of users have someone else
repair their computer, just as they do with their cars, tvs and other
products.


Computer repairers usually charge on the basis of time and that's a
good reason for making the replacement of parts quick and easy.

When a drive is failing, failed or not large enough it is trivial to
remove and replace. About 10 minutes with most desktops.


only if someone has the skills and tools.


No tools were required for this task on the Acer.

while readers of usenet might, the general public is not going to open
up a computer to swap a hard drive.

On a current iMac it can easily take an hour or more. Tedious. And no
reason to make it so difficult other than the Apple aesthetic.


the reason is that opening a computer is rarely done, if ever, and
optimizing for that scenario stupid.


But toolless construction makes a computer quicker and cheaper to
build and that's a plus for the manufacturer.

it makes a lot more sense to optimize a computer for every day use,
versus something that *might* happen.

some cars have the battery in the wheel well, requiring a wheel to be
removed just to swap the battery. since car batteries usually last 5-10
years, that's a very good design decision.


That's a lousy design decision. It's even worse than having to remove
a wheel and the wheel-arch liner just to change a headlight bulb.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

Eric Stevens November 9th 17 11:39 PM

Ripe Apples
 
On Thu, 09 Nov 2017 13:58:17 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , PeterN
wrote:

meanwhile, the rest of the world wants to do actual work, not open
up their computer and swap parts all day long.

The usual asshat reply from nospam. People don't "swap parts all day
long". They do it when needed from time to time.

actually, they don't. the vast majority of users have someone else
repair their computer, just as they do with their cars, tvs and other
products.

When a drive is failing, failed or not large enough it is trivial to
remove and replace. About 10 minutes with most desktops.

only if someone has the skills and tools.


Most people I know have the necessary screwdrivers. If not, they are
available at their local hardware store, for very little money. It is
trivial to open the box and add a drive, or memory.


trivial for you and me.

trivial for the average consumer, not so much.

I have someone else
do it, because of a physical limitation.


so it doesn't actually matter. you're making my point.

When I tell a repair guy what I
want, and stand there and watch, the time to repair is short, and the
price is very reasonable.


not all repairs are that quick


No, some machines are not designed to give the repairer rapid access.

... and not all places will let you watch.

try that at an auto repair shop.

while readers of usenet might, the general public is not going to open
up a computer to swap a hard drive.


^^^^^


On a current iMac it can easily take an hour or more. Tedious. And no
reason to make it so difficult other than the Apple aesthetic.

the reason is that opening a computer is rarely done, if ever, and
optimizing for that scenario stupid.


By that reasoning, all PC box manufacturers and assemblers, including HP
and Dell are run by stupid people.


pretty much, and a very accurate assessment of dell.


They must be doing something right. They have twice the market share
of Apple. See http://tinyurl.com/hoz6vdg or
http://appleinsider.com/articles/16/...are-to-the-mac

Apart from that Dell does make computers with tool-free access.

hp has a few interesting products, such as the spectre and yoga, but
otherwise, it's the same old boring stuff.

it makes a lot more sense to optimize a computer for every day use,
versus something that *might* happen.

some cars have the battery in the wheel well, requiring a wheel to be
removed just to swap the battery. since car batteries usually last 5-10
years, that's a very good design decision.

Ah! more vague advice from the world's best industrial designer.


more insults and there's nothing vague about it.


It's not relevant though.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

Ken Hart[_4_] November 10th 17 01:23 AM

Ripe Apples
 
On 11/09/2017 03:59 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
On 2017-11-09 09:03, nospam wrote:


snip

it makes a lot more sense to optimize a computer for every day use,
versus something that *might* happen.

some cars have the battery in the wheel well, requiring a wheel to
be removed just to swap the battery. since car batteries usually last
5-10 years, that's a very good design decision.


No, it's a horrible decision.Â* Batteries here rarely last 5 years due to
the harsh winters.Â* Having to remove a wheel to even examine a battery
for its condition is absolute stupidity.Â* I see why you admire it.


I can think of a half dozen people who are glad my Ford F-150 doesn't
require removing the wheel for access to the battery. Those half dozen
people are also glad I carry jumper cables to jump start their cars.

Making machines easy to service is a smart design decision, and not
always mutually exclusive with making machines optimum for everyday use.

(OTOH, I replaced my original equipment truck battery at eight years
here in southwest Indiana!)

--
Ken Hart


nospam November 10th 17 01:49 AM

Ripe Apples
 
In article , Ken Hart
wrote:

it makes a lot more sense to optimize a computer for every day use,
versus something that *might* happen.

some cars have the battery in the wheel well, requiring a wheel to
be removed just to swap the battery. since car batteries usually last
5-10 years, that's a very good design decision.


No, it's a horrible decision.* Batteries here rarely last 5 years due to
the harsh winters.* Having to remove a wheel to even examine a battery
for its condition is absolute stupidity.* I see why you admire it.


I can think of a half dozen people who are glad my Ford F-150 doesn't
require removing the wheel for access to the battery. Those half dozen
people are also glad I carry jumper cables to jump start their cars.


there are still battery terminals under the hood, so you'd be able to
jump start other cars or be jump started yourself without any issue
whatsoever.

it's *replacing* the battery, something you admit to not having done
for *eight* *years*, that would require a jack, which presumably you
also carry.

Making machines easy to service is a smart design decision, and not
always mutually exclusive with making machines optimum for everyday use.


sometimes it is.

for vehicles, putting rarely accessed components in normally empty
areas makes a lot of sense.

(OTOH, I replaced my original equipment truck battery at eight years
here in southwest Indiana!)


that's not unusual.

nospam November 10th 17 02:46 AM

Ripe Apples
 
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

meanwhile, the rest of the world wants to do actual work, not open
up their computer and swap parts all day long.

The usual asshat reply from nospam. People don't "swap parts all day
long". They do it when needed from time to time.


actually, they don't. the vast majority of users have someone else
repair their computer, just as they do with their cars, tvs and other
products.


Computer repairers usually charge on the basis of time and that's a
good reason for making the replacement of parts quick and easy.


these days, it's usually a flat rate repair regardless of problem,
sometimes tiered depending on severity. same for cameras.



it makes a lot more sense to optimize a computer for every day use,
versus something that *might* happen.

some cars have the battery in the wheel well, requiring a wheel to be
removed just to swap the battery. since car batteries usually last 5-10
years, that's a very good design decision.


That's a lousy design decision. It's even worse than having to remove
a wheel and the wheel-arch liner just to change a headlight bulb.


only if one has to repeatedly change bulbs. fortunately, modern bulbs
don't burn out very often (as in, outlasting the vehicle) and batteries
last much longer than they used to.

nospam November 10th 17 02:46 AM

Ripe Apples
 
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

I could swap
drives in it in a fraction of the time it took me to do the same task
in the Dell which followed it.


if all you do is open it and swap drives, then that's the computer to
get.


Two thumbscrews to get the side panel off. Unplug the drive. Flip the
lock open on the drive mount and slide out the drive. Slide in the new
drive, flip the lock closed, plug in the drive, refit the cover and
screws. An easy 10 minutes from power off to power on.


the powermac g3, g4, g5 and mac pro had a pull-lever to open or remove
the side.

for the powermac g3/g4, the side flipped down without needing to shut
off the computer, which was useful for designing and testing pci cards.

https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/2ucGgBJmyDkABGQ4.huge
https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/Nm4mRELLtcYI4YYI.huge

the powermac g4 cube had a pop-out handle:
https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/FScb4AU52CGNDjhq.huge
https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/BPGoOxpVpqOqwmjl.huge

more recent macs are not as easy to open and sell in vastly higher
quantities.

users are not interested in being able to open the computer. they want
to get actual work done.

meanwhile, the rest of the world wants to do actual work, not open up
their computer and swap parts all day long.


I used to do that when I got bored. To add to the excitement I never
knew which drive did what and the behaviour on startup was quite a fun
lottery.


whatever excites you.

nospam November 10th 17 02:46 AM

Ripe Apples
 
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

On a current iMac it can easily take an hour or more. Tedious. And no
reason to make it so difficult other than the Apple aesthetic.

the reason is that opening a computer is rarely done, if ever, and
optimizing for that scenario stupid.

By that reasoning, all PC box manufacturers and assemblers, including HP
and Dell are run by stupid people.


pretty much, and a very accurate assessment of dell.


They must be doing something right. They have twice the market share
of Apple.


market share doesn't matter and apple doesn't chase it anyway.

apple, with it's supposedly 'low market share', is on the verge of
becoming the first *trillion* dollar company, while hp, with 'twice the
market share of apple', is but a tiny fraction of apple, currently
about $35b.

if anyone is doing something right, it's apple.

also keep in mind that most of hp and dell sales are corporate
contracts, not end users, which is a totally different market segment,
something those who mindlessly spout market share numbers fail to
understand.

that's also changing, as many companies are increasingly buying macs,
such as ibm and general electric, for example.

nospam November 10th 17 02:46 AM

Ripe Apples
 
In article , Alan Browne
wrote:

meanwhile, the rest of the world wants to do actual work, not
open up their computer and swap parts all day long.

The usual asshat reply from nospam. People don't "swap parts all
day long". They do it when needed from time to time.


actually, they don't. the vast majority of users have someone else
repair their computer, just as they do with their cars, tvs and
other products.


A nonsense reply of convenience.

Having it so a user can maintain and repair it doesn't prevent people
from getting it repaired elsewhere.


most people don't do their own repairs, so making that easy to do is a
feature they'll never actually use.

When a drive is failing, failed or not large enough it is trivial
to remove and replace. About 10 minutes with most desktops.


only if someone has the skills and tools.


A couple screwdrivers. The skills are fairly low end and there a
gazillion sites showing how to do it elsewise. IOW another nonsense
reply of convenience from you.


the only nonsense replies are from you, who repeatedly resort to
insults.

you're assuming everyone is a geek. most people are not, and even those
who are geeks don't always want to open up computers to repair them.

i know quite a few people who make a *lot* of money making house calls
to upgrade user's hard drives, install software, set up a new computer,
etc., for both mac and windows systems.



it makes a lot more sense to optimize a computer for every day use,
versus something that *might* happen.

some cars have the battery in the wheel well, requiring a wheel to
be removed just to swap the battery. since car batteries usually last
5-10 years, that's a very good design decision.


No, it's a horrible decision. Batteries here rarely last 5 years due to
the harsh winters. Having to remove a wheel to even examine a battery
for its condition is absolute stupidity. I see why you admire it.


not everywhere has harsh winters, but regardless, the vehicle owner
takes it to the shop, the battery is replaced and they pick it up later
in the day.

it's exactly the same procedure no matter where in the vehicle the
battery is located.

Eric Stevens November 10th 17 08:04 AM

Ripe Apples
 
On Thu, 09 Nov 2017 20:46:04 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

On a current iMac it can easily take an hour or more. Tedious. And no
reason to make it so difficult other than the Apple aesthetic.

the reason is that opening a computer is rarely done, if ever, and
optimizing for that scenario stupid.

By that reasoning, all PC box manufacturers and assemblers, including HP
and Dell are run by stupid people.

pretty much, and a very accurate assessment of dell.


They must be doing something right. They have twice the market share
of Apple.


market share doesn't matter and apple doesn't chase it anyway.

apple, with it's supposedly 'low market share', is on the verge of
becoming the first *trillion* dollar company, while hp, with 'twice the
market share of apple', is but a tiny fraction of apple, currently
about $35b.

if anyone is doing something right, it's apple.


But it's not with desktop PCs.

also keep in mind that most of hp and dell sales are corporate
contracts, not end users, which is a totally different market segment,
something those who mindlessly spout market share numbers fail to
understand.


A desktop computer sold is a desktop computer sold. It doesn't really
matter who the buyer is.

that's also changing, as many companies are increasingly buying macs,
such as ibm and general electric, for example.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

Eric Stevens November 10th 17 08:17 AM

Ripe Apples
 
On Thu, 09 Nov 2017 20:46:03 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

I could swap
drives in it in a fraction of the time it took me to do the same task
in the Dell which followed it.

if all you do is open it and swap drives, then that's the computer to
get.


Two thumbscrews to get the side panel off. Unplug the drive. Flip the
lock open on the drive mount and slide out the drive. Slide in the new
drive, flip the lock closed, plug in the drive, refit the cover and
screws. An easy 10 minutes from power off to power on.


the powermac g3, g4, g5 and mac pro had a pull-lever to open or remove
the side.

for the powermac g3/g4, the side flipped down without needing to shut
off the computer, which was useful for designing and testing pci cards.

https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/2ucGgBJmyDkABGQ4.huge
https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/Nm4mRELLtcYI4YYI.huge

the powermac g4 cube had a pop-out handle:


Which did what? You still needed tools to change a HDD.

https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/FScb4AU52CGNDjhq.huge
https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/BPGoOxpVpqOqwmjl.huge

more recent macs are not as easy to open and sell in vastly higher
quantities.

users are not interested in being able to open the computer. they want
to get actual work done.


Which is why they don't want to sit around while someone buggers about
with small tools.

meanwhile, the rest of the world wants to do actual work, not open up
their computer and swap parts all day long.


I used to do that when I got bored. To add to the excitement I never
knew which drive did what and the behaviour on startup was quite a fun
lottery.


whatever excites you.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

nospam November 10th 17 02:18 PM

Ripe Apples
 
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

By that reasoning, all PC box manufacturers and assemblers, including
HP and Dell are run by stupid people.

pretty much, and a very accurate assessment of dell.

They must be doing something right. They have twice the market share
of Apple.


market share doesn't matter and apple doesn't chase it anyway.

apple, with it's supposedly 'low market share', is on the verge of
becoming the first *trillion* dollar company, while hp, with 'twice the
market share of apple', is but a tiny fraction of apple, currently
about $35b.

if anyone is doing something right, it's apple.


But it's not with desktop PCs.


yes with desktop pcs.

mac sales are up while the overall pc market is shrinking.

not that it matters since the future is not desktop pcs. that game is
over.

also keep in mind that most of hp and dell sales are corporate
contracts, not end users, which is a totally different market segment,
something those who mindlessly spout market share numbers fail to
understand.


A desktop computer sold is a desktop computer sold. It doesn't really
matter who the buyer is.


absolutely wrong.

nospam November 10th 17 02:18 PM

Ripe Apples
 
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

users are not interested in being able to open the computer. they want
to get actual work done.


Which is why they don't want to sit around while someone buggers about
with small tools.


instead, they bring it to a repair shop and drop it off.

Eric Stevens November 10th 17 11:08 PM

Ripe Apples
 
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 08:18:35 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

By that reasoning, all PC box manufacturers and assemblers, including
HP and Dell are run by stupid people.

pretty much, and a very accurate assessment of dell.

They must be doing something right. They have twice the market share
of Apple.

market share doesn't matter and apple doesn't chase it anyway.

apple, with it's supposedly 'low market share', is on the verge of
becoming the first *trillion* dollar company, while hp, with 'twice the
market share of apple', is but a tiny fraction of apple, currently
about $35b.

if anyone is doing something right, it's apple.


But it's not with desktop PCs.


yes with desktop pcs.

mac sales are up while the overall pc market is shrinking.


You are changing the subject. We were originally comparing Apple and
Dell who of the latter you wrote (above) "assemblers, including HP and
Dell are run by stupid people .... pretty much, and a very accurate
assessment of dell." We were not discussing the overall PC market.

not that it matters since the future is not desktop pcs. that game is
over.

also keep in mind that most of hp and dell sales are corporate
contracts, not end users, which is a totally different market segment,
something those who mindlessly spout market share numbers fail to
understand.


A desktop computer sold is a desktop computer sold. It doesn't really
matter who the buyer is.


absolutely wrong.


Why?
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

Eric Stevens November 10th 17 11:14 PM

Ripe Apples
 
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 07:53:36 -0800 (PST), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Friday, 10 November 2017 07:04:33 UTC, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 09 Nov 2017 20:46:04 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

On a current iMac it can easily take an hour or more. Tedious. And no
reason to make it so difficult other than the Apple aesthetic.

the reason is that opening a computer is rarely done, if ever, and
optimizing for that scenario stupid.

By that reasoning, all PC box manufacturers and assemblers, including HP
and Dell are run by stupid people.

pretty much, and a very accurate assessment of dell.

They must be doing something right. They have twice the market share
of Apple.

market share doesn't matter and apple doesn't chase it anyway.

apple, with it's supposedly 'low market share', is on the verge of
becoming the first *trillion* dollar company, while hp, with 'twice the
market share of apple', is but a tiny fraction of apple, currently
about $35b.

if anyone is doing something right, it's apple.


But it's not with desktop PCs.


How have you worked that one out ?


Sticking with subject of Dell vs Apple the data in the following link
(previously deleted by nospam) explains why I made that remark.

"They must be doing something right. They have twice the market share
of Apple. See http://tinyurl.com/hoz6vdg or
http://appleinsider.com/articles/16/04/11/apple-grows-to-74-of-worldwide-pc-market-as-windows-continues-to-cede-share-to-the-mac"



also keep in mind that most of hp and dell sales are corporate
contracts, not end users, which is a totally different market segment,
something those who mindlessly spout market share numbers fail to
understand.


A desktop computer sold is a desktop computer sold. It doesn't really
matter who the buyer is.


It does if you're trying to work out what people prefer it is key.
from about 1994 the head of department banned the purchase of mac because Apple were going out of business, so we in teching weren't allowed to buy Macs.
Those doing research that had grants told him we will buy what we want and they kept buying macs, mostly laptops.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

Eric Stevens November 10th 17 11:16 PM

Ripe Apples
 
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 03:40:16 -0800 (PST), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 9 November 2017 22:39:05 UTC, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 09 Nov 2017 13:58:17 -0500, nospam



not all repairs are that quick


No, some machines are not designed to give the repairer rapid access.


How long woud it take yuo to change a wheel on yuor car ?


So the formual one teams are really supid they have to employ loads of people to service a car brought in but they can change 4 tyres/wheels in less time that it take you to have a crap.

Can you understand why formula 1 cars are designed not to take as long as you do ?


How on earth do you think that that is relevant to what we were
discussing?
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

Eric Stevens November 10th 17 11:23 PM

Ripe Apples
 
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 08:18:36 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

users are not interested in being able to open the computer. they want
to get actual work done.


Which is why they don't want to sit around while someone buggers about
with small tools.


instead, they bring it to a repair shop and drop it off.


All of the high end commercially oriented Dell stuff can be fixed on
the spot without needing any tools.

For the people who don't have on-site on-call service they can be
fixed within minutes at the service center. It's called cost
effective.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

Eric Stevens November 10th 17 11:30 PM

Ripe Apples
 
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 02:57:48 -0800 (PST), Whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 9 November 2017 20:50:51 UTC, Eric Stevens wrote:
On Thu, 09 Nov 2017 07:49:00 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

It might be
an ugly SoB but that was largely because it was designed to hold a
wide variety of hardware which could be installed or replaced without
the use of any tools whatsoever.

it need not be ugly to do that.

It was Whisky-dave who said it was ugly.

he's right.


It didn't matter. It was out of sight under my desk.


So still takes up extra space, obviously under the desk is the designated place to put a desktop.
Why would you want to put a desktop PC under a desk ?
Was it really that ugly that yuo had to hid it under the desk ?


.... because it left me more room on the desk top.


When we had PC desktops under the desk they got filled with lots of dust and grime and got kicked by the students some got kicked over, but that's students for you. Our new desktop PC have been designed like iMacs so the screen and computer both sit on the desktop.

I don't have that problem of abuse or lack of maintenance.

I don't think it was ugly but
it was what it was and it was extremely utilitarian.

in other words, boring.


But practical.


But you put a desktop computer under the desk why , there must be some reason.


I told you above. Besides, I don't buy computers for their ornamental
qualities.



I could swap
drives in it in a fraction of the time it took me to do the same task
in the Dell which followed it.

if all you do is open it and swap drives, then that's the computer to
get.


Two thumbscrews to get the side panel off. Unplug the drive. Flip the
lock open on the drive mount and slide out the drive. Slide in the new
drive, flip the lock closed, plug in the drive, refit the cover and
screws. An easy 10 minutes from power off to power on.


I just attach a drive to a USB port takes a few seconds, even though we have about 40 PCs in the lab we haven't had to change a drive in years.


Would you want to hang a drive on the kind of USB port circa 2000?

But we did for years run a course unit on hpw PCs work and how to change cards, discs and teh like from PC desktops, but that course has now been cancelled as we know the vast majority of uses don;t ever need to change the ethernet card or hard drive any more than the average car driver has to change their engine or headlights or 'gas' tank.

Don't tell that to nospam.


meanwhile, the rest of the world wants to do actual work, not open up
their computer and swap parts all day long.



I should have labelled this 'Joke'.

I used to do that when I got bored. To add to the excitement I never
knew which drive did what and the behaviour on startup was quite a fun
lottery.


'End of Joke'.

yes some PCs users foud it fun, but those that wanted the computers to actually do what they purchased them for whether it was running word of photoshop find such thimngs a pain in the arse and really don't want to do it.

It;s like my grandparents they got food much cheaperr and for them it made more sense to go into the garden grab the chicken ring it's neck pluck it & cook it.
How many peolpe do that today they pop into a supermarket and get a pre-killed pre-plucked chicken, some go further as buy one al;ready in the bun, sure it;s more expensive but few opt for chasing chickens around the garden when KFC and the like can serve you one ready to eat, after all peoplpe mostly buy chicken to eat rathter than exercise or because they want to kill something.

I think the same happened with computers and now it has migrated to phones, I bet most would rather spend money on a batteru than manually use a generator to 'wind the phome up.
Maybe you;d prefer a winding handle on your phomne raher than have to pay for a battery and charging.


--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

nospam November 10th 17 11:55 PM

Ripe Apples
 
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

I just attach a drive to a USB port takes a few seconds, even though we have
about 40 PCs in the lab we haven't had to change a drive in years.


Would you want to hang a drive on the kind of USB port circa 2000?


usb 2 existed then, so yes.

however, macs had firewire for several years prior, which was faster
than usb 2 and *muuuuuuuch* faster than usb 1.1.

But we did for years run a course unit on hpw PCs work and how to change
cards, discs and teh like from PC desktops, but that course has now been
cancelled as we know the vast majority of uses don;t ever need to change the
ethernet card or hard drive any more than the average car driver has to
change their engine or headlights or 'gas' tank.

Don't tell that to nospam.


too late.

nospam November 10th 17 11:55 PM

Ripe Apples
 
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

By that reasoning, all PC box manufacturers and assemblers, including
HP and Dell are run by stupid people.

pretty much, and a very accurate assessment of dell.

They must be doing something right. They have twice the market share
of Apple.

market share doesn't matter and apple doesn't chase it anyway.

apple, with it's supposedly 'low market share', is on the verge of
becoming the first *trillion* dollar company, while hp, with 'twice the
market share of apple', is but a tiny fraction of apple, currently
about $35b.

if anyone is doing something right, it's apple.

But it's not with desktop PCs.


yes with desktop pcs.

mac sales are up while the overall pc market is shrinking.


You are changing the subject.


nope.

We were originally comparing Apple and
Dell who of the latter you wrote (above) "assemblers, including HP and
Dell are run by stupid people .... pretty much, and a very accurate
assessment of dell." We were not discussing the overall PC market.


yes we were.

just what do you think market share is about, if not the pc market?

hp, dell and apple are all part of the overall pc market.

not that it matters since the future is not desktop pcs. that game is
over.

also keep in mind that most of hp and dell sales are corporate
contracts, not end users, which is a totally different market segment,
something those who mindlessly spout market share numbers fail to
understand.

A desktop computer sold is a desktop computer sold. It doesn't really
matter who the buyer is.


absolutely wrong.


Why?


common sense.

do you really think those who buy a $200 netbook, a $1000 laptop, a
$2000 midrange system and a $5000 high end workstation are the same
sort of customers?

not only are the customers different, but the product specs will also
be different as well as the types of tasks done on them.

nospam November 10th 17 11:55 PM

Ripe Apples
 
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

They must be doing something right. They have twice the market share
of Apple.

market share doesn't matter and apple doesn't chase it anyway.

apple, with it's supposedly 'low market share', is on the verge of
becoming the first *trillion* dollar company, while hp, with 'twice the
market share of apple', is but a tiny fraction of apple, currently
about $35b.

if anyone is doing something right, it's apple.

But it's not with desktop PCs.


How have you worked that one out ?


Sticking with subject of Dell vs Apple the data in the following link
(previously deleted by nospam) explains why I made that remark.

"They must be doing something right. They have twice the market share


once again, market share doesn't matter.

apple is about to become the first trillion dollar company, with it's
'tiny' market share.

apple has enough cash to buy dell *and* hp.

you also might want to actually read the url *you* gave:

http://appleinsider.com/articles/16/...worldwide-pc-m
arket-as-windows-continues-to-cede-share-to-the-mac"

Apple continued to grow overall Mac marketshare during the March
quarter as most leading Windows PC makers suffered significant
setbacks, according to the latest research data from Gartner and IDC.
....
Meanwhile, according to Gartner, Apple's worldwide shipments advanced
1 percent year-over-year to 4.6 million during the quarter, giving it
a 7.1 percent marketshare. HP by contrast saw units slide 9 percent,
while Lenovo dropped 7.2 percent. Dell lost just 0.4 percent, but the
only major PC maker to see growth was Asus, up 1.5 percent.

nospam November 10th 17 11:55 PM

Ripe Apples
 
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

users are not interested in being able to open the computer. they want
to get actual work done.

Which is why they don't want to sit around while someone buggers about
with small tools.


instead, they bring it to a repair shop and drop it off.


All of the high end commercially oriented Dell stuff can be fixed on
the spot without needing any tools.


nobody cares whether the onsite service person needs tools or not. they
just want it fixed.

you're also ignoring the time for the person to actually show up.

not that it matters, since high end commercial sites will have backup
systems ready for immediate service, often automatically.

even midrange sites and many low end ones have backup systems available.

For the people who don't have on-site on-call service they can be
fixed within minutes at the service center. It's called cost
effective.


as usual, you're ignoring the time to disconnect it, pack it up and
take it to the service center, wait for it to be fixed (even if it's
just a few minutes), drive back and reconnect everything.

of course, that only matters if it fails.

if it *doesn't* fail, then being able to fix it within minutes doesn't
make a difference.

put simply: dell *has* to offer fast repair because their products
*need* it.

Eric Stevens November 11th 17 01:52 AM

Ripe Apples
 
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 17:55:12 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

By that reasoning, all PC box manufacturers and assemblers, including
HP and Dell are run by stupid people.

pretty much, and a very accurate assessment of dell.

They must be doing something right. They have twice the market share
of Apple.

market share doesn't matter and apple doesn't chase it anyway.

apple, with it's supposedly 'low market share', is on the verge of
becoming the first *trillion* dollar company, while hp, with 'twice the
market share of apple', is but a tiny fraction of apple, currently
about $35b.

if anyone is doing something right, it's apple.

But it's not with desktop PCs.

yes with desktop pcs.

mac sales are up while the overall pc market is shrinking.


You are changing the subject.


nope.

We were originally comparing Apple and
Dell who of the latter you wrote (above) "assemblers, including HP and
Dell are run by stupid people .... pretty much, and a very accurate
assessment of dell." We were not discussing the overall PC market.


yes we were.

just what do you think market share is about, if not the pc market?

hp, dell and apple are all part of the overall pc market.


But the data, the link to which you deleted showed that the "stupid
people" who run Dell have achieved twice the PC market share of Apple.
No wonder you deleted the link and are now trying to change the
subject.

not that it matters since the future is not desktop pcs. that game is
over.

also keep in mind that most of hp and dell sales are corporate
contracts, not end users, which is a totally different market segment,
something those who mindlessly spout market share numbers fail to
understand.

A desktop computer sold is a desktop computer sold. It doesn't really
matter who the buyer is.

absolutely wrong.


Why?


common sense.

do you really think those who buy a $200 netbook, a $1000 laptop, a
$2000 midrange system and a $5000 high end workstation are the same
sort of customers?

not only are the customers different, but the product specs will also
be different as well as the types of tasks done on them.


And their money is all equally good.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

Eric Stevens November 11th 17 01:56 AM

Ripe Apples
 
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 17:55:13 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

They must be doing something right. They have twice the market share
of Apple.

market share doesn't matter and apple doesn't chase it anyway.

apple, with it's supposedly 'low market share', is on the verge of
becoming the first *trillion* dollar company, while hp, with 'twice the
market share of apple', is but a tiny fraction of apple, currently
about $35b.

if anyone is doing something right, it's apple.

But it's not with desktop PCs.

How have you worked that one out ?


Sticking with subject of Dell vs Apple the data in the following link
(previously deleted by nospam) explains why I made that remark.

"They must be doing something right. They have twice the market share


once again, market share doesn't matter.

apple is about to become the first trillion dollar company, with it's
'tiny' market share.

But they are not a trillion dollar company, just with PCs. Bar in mind
it was PCs we were discussing.

apple has enough cash to buy dell *and* hp.

you also might want to actually read the url *you* gave:

http://appleinsider.com/articles/16/...worldwide-pc-m
arket-as-windows-continues-to-cede-share-to-the-mac"

Apple continued to grow overall Mac marketshare during the March
quarter as most leading Windows PC makers suffered significant
setbacks, according to the latest research data from Gartner and IDC.
...
Meanwhile, according to Gartner, Apple's worldwide shipments advanced
1 percent year-over-year to 4.6 million during the quarter, giving it
a 7.1 percent marketshare. HP by contrast saw units slide 9 percent,
while Lenovo dropped 7.2 percent. Dell lost just 0.4 percent, but the
only major PC maker to see growth was Asus, up 1.5 percent.


Yep. I read all that. I didn't try to quote it selectively the way you
are prone to do.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

nospam November 11th 17 03:08 AM

Ripe Apples
 
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

They must be doing something right. They have twice the market share
of Apple.

market share doesn't matter and apple doesn't chase it anyway.

apple, with it's supposedly 'low market share', is on the verge of
becoming the first *trillion* dollar company, while hp, with 'twice the
market share of apple', is but a tiny fraction of apple, currently
about $35b.

if anyone is doing something right, it's apple.

But it's not with desktop PCs.

How have you worked that one out ?

Sticking with subject of Dell vs Apple the data in the following link
(previously deleted by nospam) explains why I made that remark.

"They must be doing something right. They have twice the market share


once again, market share doesn't matter.

apple is about to become the first trillion dollar company, with it's
'tiny' market share.

But they are not a trillion dollar company, just with PCs.


$896.81 billion, as of now.

my guess is it'll hit $1t by feb, 2018, possibly sooner.

Bar in mind
it was PCs we were discussing.


which includes macs, and you've even argued that a mac is a pc.

in fact, some people buy a mac to run windows and *not* mac os.

apple has enough cash to buy dell *and* hp.

you also might want to actually read the url *you* gave:


http://appleinsider.com/articles/16/...of-worldwide-p
c-m
arket-as-windows-continues-to-cede-share-to-the-mac"

Apple continued to grow overall Mac marketshare during the March
quarter as most leading Windows PC makers suffered significant
setbacks, according to the latest research data from Gartner and IDC.
...
Meanwhile, according to Gartner, Apple's worldwide shipments advanced
1 percent year-over-year to 4.6 million during the quarter, giving it
a 7.1 percent marketshare. HP by contrast saw units slide 9 percent,
while Lenovo dropped 7.2 percent. Dell lost just 0.4 percent, but the
only major PC maker to see growth was Asus, up 1.5 percent.


Yep. I read all that. I didn't try to quote it selectively the way you
are prone to do.


translated: you ignored the key parts that contradict your prejudices.

nospam November 11th 17 03:08 AM

Ripe Apples
 
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

By that reasoning, all PC box manufacturers and assemblers,
including
HP and Dell are run by stupid people.

pretty much, and a very accurate assessment of dell.

They must be doing something right. They have twice the market share
of Apple.

market share doesn't matter and apple doesn't chase it anyway.

apple, with it's supposedly 'low market share', is on the verge of
becoming the first *trillion* dollar company, while hp, with 'twice the
market share of apple', is but a tiny fraction of apple, currently
about $35b.

if anyone is doing something right, it's apple.

But it's not with desktop PCs.

yes with desktop pcs.

mac sales are up while the overall pc market is shrinking.

You are changing the subject.


nope.

We were originally comparing Apple and
Dell who of the latter you wrote (above) "assemblers, including HP and
Dell are run by stupid people .... pretty much, and a very accurate
assessment of dell." We were not discussing the overall PC market.


yes we were.

just what do you think market share is about, if not the pc market?

hp, dell and apple are all part of the overall pc market.


But the data, the link to which you deleted showed that the "stupid
people" who run Dell have achieved twice the PC market share of Apple.


dell targets a different market segment than apple. the bulk of dell's
sales are corporate contracts, not end user sales. apple's sales are
mostly consumer, a segment dell is extremely weak. for retail sales,
apple owns it. how many dell stores do you see? zero. they were closed
long ago.

but as i said, apple isn't chasing market share.

also, despite apple's supposedly low (and entirely meaningless) market
share, apple is raking in the bucks, more than hp and dell *combined*:
http://www.asymco.com/wp-content/upl...ot-2013-04-16-
at-4-16-4.16.46-PM.png

as i said:
if anyone is doing something right, it's apple.


No wonder you deleted the link and are now trying to change the
subject.


nope. i'm exactly on subject, and understand apple *far* better than
you do.

not that it matters since the future is not desktop pcs. that game is
over.

also keep in mind that most of hp and dell sales are corporate
contracts, not end users, which is a totally different market segment,
something those who mindlessly spout market share numbers fail to
understand.

A desktop computer sold is a desktop computer sold. It doesn't really
matter who the buyer is.

absolutely wrong.

Why?


common sense.

do you really think those who buy a $200 netbook, a $1000 laptop, a
$2000 midrange system and a $5000 high end workstation are the same
sort of customers?

not only are the customers different, but the product specs will also
be different as well as the types of tasks done on them.


And their money is all equally good.


whoosh.

Eric Stevens November 11th 17 03:14 AM

Ripe Apples
 
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 17:55:14 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

users are not interested in being able to open the computer. they want
to get actual work done.

Which is why they don't want to sit around while someone buggers about
with small tools.

instead, they bring it to a repair shop and drop it off.


All of the high end commercially oriented Dell stuff can be fixed on
the spot without needing any tools.


nobody cares whether the onsite service person needs tools or not. they
just want it fixed.


[Holds up hoarding]

They just want it fixed!
When do they want it?
They want it NOWWWW!


They don't want to wait while the repair tech tries to find that
screw which he dropped somewhere inside the computer case (or was it
on the carpet?)

you're also ignoring the time for the person to actually show up.

not that it matters, since high end commercial sites will have backup
systems ready for immediate service, often automatically.

even midrange sites and many low end ones have backup systems available.

For the people who don't have on-site on-call service they can be
fixed within minutes at the service center. It's called cost
effective.


as usual, you're ignoring the time to disconnect it, pack it up and
take it to the service center, wait for it to be fixed (even if it's
just a few minutes), drive back and reconnect everything.

of course, that only matters if it fails.

if it *doesn't* fail, then being able to fix it within minutes doesn't
make a difference.

put simply: dell *has* to offer fast repair because their products
*need* it.


And Apple offers slow repair because their products don't need fast
repair ...

This is getting silly. I think I will leave you to it.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

Eric Stevens November 11th 17 03:17 AM

Ripe Apples
 
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 17:55:10 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

I just attach a drive to a USB port takes a few seconds, even though we have
about 40 PCs in the lab we haven't had to change a drive in years.


Would you want to hang a drive on the kind of USB port circa 2000?


usb 2 existed then, so yes.

however, macs had firewire for several years prior, which was faster
than usb 2 and *muuuuuuuch* faster than usb 1.1.


The Acer had a firewire card fitted but I found I never needed to use
it.

But we did for years run a course unit on hpw PCs work and how to change
cards, discs and teh like from PC desktops, but that course has now been
cancelled as we know the vast majority of uses don;t ever need to change the
ethernet card or hard drive any more than the average car driver has to
change their engine or headlights or 'gas' tank.

Don't tell that to nospam.


too late.

--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

nospam November 11th 17 03:33 AM

Ripe Apples
 
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

Would you want to hang a drive on the kind of USB port circa 2000?


usb 2 existed then, so yes.

however, macs had firewire for several years prior, which was faster
than usb 2 and *muuuuuuuch* faster than usb 1.1.


The Acer had a firewire card fitted but I found I never needed to use
it.


why not?

firewire would have been faster than dealing with usb 2, especially
back then when the early usb chipsets were not all that great.

not only that, but bus-powered firewire drives worked exceptionally
well, easily supporting two and sometimes three drives, all connected
to a single firewire port.

Eric Stevens November 11th 17 05:04 AM

Ripe Apples
 
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 21:08:35 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

By that reasoning, all PC box manufacturers and assemblers,
including
HP and Dell are run by stupid people.

pretty much, and a very accurate assessment of dell.

They must be doing something right. They have twice the market share
of Apple.

market share doesn't matter and apple doesn't chase it anyway.

apple, with it's supposedly 'low market share', is on the verge of
becoming the first *trillion* dollar company, while hp, with 'twice the
market share of apple', is but a tiny fraction of apple, currently
about $35b.

if anyone is doing something right, it's apple.

But it's not with desktop PCs.

yes with desktop pcs.

mac sales are up while the overall pc market is shrinking.

You are changing the subject.

nope.

We were originally comparing Apple and
Dell who of the latter you wrote (above) "assemblers, including HP and
Dell are run by stupid people .... pretty much, and a very accurate
assessment of dell." We were not discussing the overall PC market.

yes we were.

just what do you think market share is about, if not the pc market?

hp, dell and apple are all part of the overall pc market.


But the data, the link to which you deleted showed that the "stupid
people" who run Dell have achieved twice the PC market share of Apple.


dell targets a different market segment than apple. the bulk of dell's
sales are corporate contracts, not end user sales. apple's sales are
mostly consumer, a segment dell is extremely weak. for retail sales,
apple owns it. how many dell stores do you see? zero. they were closed
long ago.

but as i said, apple isn't chasing market share.

also, despite apple's supposedly low (and entirely meaningless) market
share, apple is raking in the bucks, more than hp and dell *combined*:
http://www.asymco.com/wp-content/upl...ot-2013-04-16-
at-4-16-4.16.46-PM.png


Wiggle wiggle (also squirm). Why don't you continue to talk about the
relative competence of Apple and Dell in the PC market, which is where
you started off?

as i said:
if anyone is doing something right, it's apple.


No wonder you deleted the link and are now trying to change the
subject.


nope. i'm exactly on subject, and understand apple *far* better than
you do.


And I understand the subject where this started off better than you
seem prepared for.

not that it matters since the future is not desktop pcs. that game is
over.

also keep in mind that most of hp and dell sales are corporate
contracts, not end users, which is a totally different market segment,
something those who mindlessly spout market share numbers fail to
understand.

A desktop computer sold is a desktop computer sold. It doesn't really
matter who the buyer is.

absolutely wrong.

Why?

common sense.

do you really think those who buy a $200 netbook, a $1000 laptop, a
$2000 midrange system and a $5000 high end workstation are the same
sort of customers?

not only are the customers different, but the product specs will also
be different as well as the types of tasks done on them.


And their money is all equally good.


whoosh.


Can't answer that, can you.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

Eric Stevens November 11th 17 05:07 AM

Ripe Apples
 
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 21:08:31 -0500, nospam
wrote:

In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

They must be doing something right. They have twice the market share
of Apple.

market share doesn't matter and apple doesn't chase it anyway.

apple, with it's supposedly 'low market share', is on the verge of
becoming the first *trillion* dollar company, while hp, with 'twice the
market share of apple', is but a tiny fraction of apple, currently
about $35b.

if anyone is doing something right, it's apple.

But it's not with desktop PCs.

How have you worked that one out ?

Sticking with subject of Dell vs Apple the data in the following link
(previously deleted by nospam) explains why I made that remark.

"They must be doing something right. They have twice the market share

once again, market share doesn't matter.

apple is about to become the first trillion dollar company, with it's
'tiny' market share.

But they are not a trillion dollar company, just with PCs.


$896.81 billion, as of now.

my guess is it'll hit $1t by feb, 2018, possibly sooner.

Bar in mind
it was PCs we were discussing.


which includes macs, and you've even argued that a mac is a pc.


PC as in personal computer - yes.

in fact, some people buy a mac to run windows and *not* mac os.

apple has enough cash to buy dell *and* hp.

you also might want to actually read the url *you* gave:


http://appleinsider.com/articles/16/...of-worldwide-p
c-m
arket-as-windows-continues-to-cede-share-to-the-mac"
Apple continued to grow overall Mac marketshare during the March
quarter as most leading Windows PC makers suffered significant
setbacks, according to the latest research data from Gartner and IDC.
...
Meanwhile, according to Gartner, Apple's worldwide shipments advanced
1 percent year-over-year to 4.6 million during the quarter, giving it
a 7.1 percent marketshare. HP by contrast saw units slide 9 percent,
while Lenovo dropped 7.2 percent. Dell lost just 0.4 percent, but the
only major PC maker to see growth was Asus, up 1.5 percent.


Yep. I read all that. I didn't try to quote it selectively the way you
are prone to do.


translated: you ignored the key parts that contradict your prejudices.


I haven't ignored any of it. In fact all I did was refer you to it.

That's enough of this nonsensical argument. You are running in
circles.
--

Regards,

Eric Stevens

nospam November 11th 17 03:49 PM

Ripe Apples
 
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

We were originally comparing Apple and
Dell who of the latter you wrote (above) "assemblers, including HP and
Dell are run by stupid people .... pretty much, and a very accurate
assessment of dell." We were not discussing the overall PC market.

yes we were.

just what do you think market share is about, if not the pc market?

hp, dell and apple are all part of the overall pc market.

But the data, the link to which you deleted showed that the "stupid
people" who run Dell have achieved twice the PC market share of Apple.


dell targets a different market segment than apple. the bulk of dell's
sales are corporate contracts, not end user sales. apple's sales are
mostly consumer, a segment dell is extremely weak. for retail sales,
apple owns it. how many dell stores do you see? zero. they were closed
long ago.

but as i said, apple isn't chasing market share.

also, despite apple's supposedly low (and entirely meaningless) market
share, apple is raking in the bucks, more than hp and dell *combined*:
http://www.asymco.com/wp-content/upl...ot-2013-04-16-
at-4-16-4.16.46-PM.png


Wiggle wiggle (also squirm).


nope.

Why don't you continue to talk about the
relative competence of Apple and Dell in the PC market, which is where
you started off?


that's exactly what i have been talking about all along.

as i said:
if anyone is doing something right, it's apple.


No wonder you deleted the link and are now trying to change the
subject.


nope. i'm exactly on subject, and understand apple *far* better than
you do.


And I understand the subject where this started off better than you
seem prepared for.


nope. you clearly do not.

you are fixated on market share being the only metric of success.

that's a fundamental misunderstanding.

you also don't understand what the market share numbers even mean.


also keep in mind that most of hp and dell sales are corporate
contracts, not end users, which is a totally different market
segment,
something those who mindlessly spout market share numbers fail to
understand.

A desktop computer sold is a desktop computer sold. It doesn't really
matter who the buyer is.

absolutely wrong.

Why?

common sense.

do you really think those who buy a $200 netbook, a $1000 laptop, a
$2000 midrange system and a $5000 high end workstation are the same
sort of customers?

not only are the customers different, but the product specs will also
be different as well as the types of tasks done on them.

And their money is all equally good.


whoosh.


Can't answer that, can you.


i already did, and more than once.

nospam November 11th 17 03:49 PM

Ripe Apples
 
In article , Eric Stevens
wrote:

They must be doing something right. They have twice the market
share
of Apple.

market share doesn't matter and apple doesn't chase it anyway.

apple, with it's supposedly 'low market share', is on the verge of
becoming the first *trillion* dollar company, while hp, with 'twice
the
market share of apple', is but a tiny fraction of apple, currently
about $35b.

if anyone is doing something right, it's apple.

But it's not with desktop PCs.

How have you worked that one out ?

Sticking with subject of Dell vs Apple the data in the following link
(previously deleted by nospam) explains why I made that remark.

"They must be doing something right. They have twice the market share

once again, market share doesn't matter.

apple is about to become the first trillion dollar company, with it's
'tiny' market share.

But they are not a trillion dollar company, just with PCs.


$896.81 billion, as of now.

my guess is it'll hit $1t by feb, 2018, possibly sooner.

Bar in mind
it was PCs we were discussing.


which includes macs, and you've even argued that a mac is a pc.


PC as in personal computer - yes.


in other words, i've remained on topic all along.

in fact, some people buy a mac to run windows and *not* mac os.

apple has enough cash to buy dell *and* hp.

you also might want to actually read the url *you* gave:



http://appleinsider.com/articles/16/...74-of-worldwid
e-p
c-m
arket-as-windows-continues-to-cede-share-to-the-mac"
Apple continued to grow overall Mac marketshare during the March
quarter as most leading Windows PC makers suffered significant
setbacks, according to the latest research data from Gartner and IDC.
...
Meanwhile, according to Gartner, Apple's worldwide shipments advanced
1 percent year-over-year to 4.6 million during the quarter, giving it
a 7.1 percent marketshare. HP by contrast saw units slide 9 percent,
while Lenovo dropped 7.2 percent. Dell lost just 0.4 percent, but the
only major PC maker to see growth was Asus, up 1.5 percent.

Yep. I read all that. I didn't try to quote it selectively the way you
are prone to do.


translated: you ignored the key parts that contradict your prejudices.


I haven't ignored any of it. In fact all I did was refer you to it.

That's enough of this nonsensical argument. You are running in
circles.


i'm not moving at all.

you're *very* confused.


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