Photography - economy in developing paper

PhotoBanter.com (http://www.photobanter.com/index.php)

- In The Darkroom (http://www.photobanter.com/forumdisplay.php?f=3)

- - economy in developing paper (http://www.photobanter.com/showthread.php?t=15404)

economy in developing paper

ok friends, I always develop in dektol but this is a time that I use a
massive develop soup.
I was searching for more economy developer, I was thinking about agfa
Neutol.
Anyone has tryed this developer (sounds good)?

Any other suggestions for more economy in developer?

lookin for suggestions!!

Stefano

--
Non è bello cio che è bello figuriamoci cio che è brutto!

On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 17:50:40 GMT, stefano bramato
wrote:

ok friends, I always develop in dektol but this is a time that I use a
massive develop soup.

Any other suggestions for more economy in developer?

You might try Ethol LPD. I use the liquid with Ilford MGFBWT with
good results. It also stores well after dilution if kept in a full
bottle.

Chris Ellinger
Ann Arbor, MI USA
http://www.ellingerphoto.com

stefano bramato wrote:

ok friends, I always develop in dektol but this is a time that I use a
massive develop soup.
I was searching for more economy developer, I was thinking about agfa
Neutol.
Anyone has tryed this developer (sounds good)?

Any other suggestions for more economy in developer?

lookin for suggestions!!

The most economical paper developer would likely to one you mix
yourself. The formula for D-72 was published more than 70 years ago,
and Dektol is just a commercialized version of D-72. As I recall, D-72
contains only metol, sodium sulfite, and an alkali (I don't recall if
it's sodium carbonate, borax, or sodium metaborate). None of these are
particularly toxic, or expensive, and all should be reasonably available
even in Italy (via European suppliers, of course). Here in the United
States, $25 worth of raw chemicals would be expected to produce
developer that would cost around $150 commercially; as an added benefit,
if you have a good scale you can mix just enough to fill a tray instead
of a liter or five liters of stock solution, so you don't have waste
from shelf life expiration.

--
I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
-- E. J. Fudd, 1954

Donald Qualls, aka The Silent Observer
Lathe Building Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/HomebuiltLathe.htm
Speedway 7x12 Lathe Pages http://silent1.home.netcom.com/my7x12.htm

Opinions expressed are my own -- take them for what they're worth
and don't expect them to be perfect.

Donald Qualls wrote:

The most economical paper developer would likely to one you mix
yourself. The formula for D-72 was published more than 70 years ago,

It's actually not that easy to save money on mixing your own. It's great
if you make up non-commerical stuff. Or if you need non-standard sizes. Or
for making up stuff already diluted. But it's easier to buy the commerical
stuff and unless you're buying the small packages you might be saving money.
Or if you're throwing out a bunch of stuff because it's gone old.

Not saying you can't save money with mix your own but it's not the
reason I'd do it. Just buying the big package will save you alot more money
usually.

Nick

On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 02:16:15 GMT, Donald Qualls
wrote:

stefano bramato wrote:

ok friends, I always develop in dektol but this is a time that I use a
massive develop soup.
I was searching for more economy developer, I was thinking about agfa
Neutol.
Anyone has tryed this developer (sounds good)?

Any other suggestions for more economy in developer?

lookin for suggestions!!

The most economical paper developer would likely to one you mix
yourself. The formula for D-72 was published more than 70 years ago,
and Dektol is just a commercialized version of D-72. As I recall, D-72
contains only metol, sodium sulfite, and an alkali (I don't recall if
it's sodium carbonate, borax, or sodium metaborate).

Did you forget Hydroquinone? I seem to remember HQ in that formula,
but absent from the "soft" formulae: Selectol-Soft, etc.

None of these are
particularly toxic, or expensive, and all should be reasonably available
even in Italy (via European suppliers, of course). Here in the United
States, $25 worth of raw chemicals would be expected to produce
developer that would cost around $150 commercially; as an added benefit,
if you have a good scale you can mix just enough to fill a tray instead
of a liter or five liters of stock solution, so you don't have waste
from shelf life expiration.

In any event, I second the thrust of your recommendation.

Regards

Robert Vervoordt, MFA

"stefano bramato" wrote in message
t...

I was searching for more economy developer, I was thinking about agfa
Neutol.
Anyone has tryed this developer (sounds good)?

I just started using it and love it. I also (via this ng) have heard of--and
tried--using Rodinal as a paper developer. It worked rather well at a 1:20
mix.
YMMV

"Donald Qualls" wrote in message
. com...
stefano bramato wrote:

ok friends, I always develop in dektol but this is a time
that I use a massive develop soup.
I was searching for more economy developer, I was
thinking about agfa Neutol.
Anyone has tryed this developer (sounds good)?

Any other suggestions for more economy in developer?

lookin for suggestions!!

The most economical paper developer would likely to one
you mix yourself. The formula for D-72 was published more
than 70 years ago, and Dektol is just a commercialized
version of D-72. As I recall, D-72 contains only metol,
sodium sulfite, and an alkali (I don't recall if it's
sodium carbonate, borax, or sodium metaborate). None of
these are particularly toxic, or expensive, and all should
be reasonably available even in Italy (via European
suppliers, of course). Here in the United States, $25
worth of raw chemicals would be expected to produce
developer that would cost around $150 commercially; as an
added benefit, if you have a good scale you can mix just
enough to fill a tray instead of a liter or five liters of
stock solution, so you don't have waste from shelf life
expiration.

--
I may be a scwewy wabbit, but I'm not going to Alcatwaz!
-- E.
J. Fudd, 1954
The cost of mix it yourself developer depends on what you
have to pay for the ingredients. A reasonably good scale is
helpful but not an absolute necessity. Formulas are
available on the web at several sites. Packaged developers
usually contain some sequestering agents to help with hard
water. Typically EDTA in one form or another or Sodium
hexametaphosphate (Calgon). If you use distilled water or
boil the water you don't need the sequestering agents. Here
are a couple of standard formulas. Kodak D-72 is the
equivalent of Dektol. Very similar developer formulas were
published by every maker of printing paper over the last 70
years or so as suggested above.

Kodak D-72 Stock Solution
Water (at 125F or 52C) 500.0 ml
Metol 3.1 grams
Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 45.0 grams
Hydroquinone 12.0 grams
Sodium Carbonate, anhydrous 67.5 grams
Potassium Bromide 1.9 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter
If Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated is used the amount
is 79 grams.
For use dilute 1:1 to 1:4

It is helpful in mixing any formula to use water that has
been boiled for about five minutes and allowed to stand and
cool. Boiling serves three purposes: it removes dissolved
gasses; it causes some dissolved carbonates to come out of
solution and be deposited on the vessel; it coagulates any
organic matter which will precipitate in the vessel. When
cool carefully decant or syphon off the clear water.
Mix the ingredients in the order given. This is
important, for instance, Metol will not dissolve in
concentrated solutions of sulfite so must be mixed first. It
is helpful to keep the water temperture up to 125F during
mixing. Do not use hotter water: if hot enough it will cause
the sulfite to decompose. Around 130F is the limit.
The amount of bromide given above is the minimum. It can
be increased to as much as 12 grams per liter. This will
result in slower development and warmer tones. Adding a
small amount of Benzotriazole will shift the tones toward
the cold side.

Kodak D-52 is the same as Kodak Selectol. It is a less
active developer than the above meant for warmer tones on
warm tone paper.

Kodak D-52 Stock Solution
Water (at 125F or 52C) 500.0 ml
Metol 1.5 grams
Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 22.5 grams
Hydroquinone 6.3 grams
Sodium Carbonate, anhydrous 15.0 grams
Potassium Bromide 1.5 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter

If Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated is used the amount is
17.5 grams.
For use dilute 1:1
Again the bromide is a minimum, it can be increased to
around 12 grams per liter for warmer tones.

Kodak never published the formula for Selectol-Soft but
from its MSDS it is probably nearly identical to Ansco/Agfa
120

Ansco/Agfa 120 Soft Working Paper Developer Stock Solution

Water (at 125F or 52C) 750.0 ml
Metol 12.3 grams
Sodium Sulfite, dessicated 36.0 grams
Sodium Carbonate, monohydrated 36.0 grams
Potassium Bromide 1.8 grams
Water to make 1.0 liter
If Sodium Carbonate, anhydrous is used the amount is 23
grams
For use dilute 1:1 to 1:2

Note that the variation in image color with the
developer is minimal for RC papers containing a developer.
Some Ilford papers do not contain incorporated developer and
develop like traditional fiber papers. Most RC papers do
have incorporated developer to allow their use in rapid
access "activation" processors.
Note that Kodak formulas call for "Elon". Elon was
Kodak's trade name for the chemical more often called Metol,
they are the same thing.
There are other formulas for somewhat more active
developers meant for cold tones on contact type papers.
These are similar to D-72 but have more carbonate and a
somewhat greater ratio of hydroquinone to metol. Kodak D-73
or Agfa/Ansco 103 is an example of this type.
Arm & Hammer Washing Soda is Sodium carbonate,
monohydrated in sufficiently pure form for photographic
purposes.
Note that the amounts of the ingredients are not very
critical. While specified in tenths of a gram rounding to
the nearest gram is good enough.

More notes: Generally, Chlorine in water will not affect
photo chemicals. In any case it is driven off by boiling and
is destroyed by thiosufate when mixing fixing baths.
Cloramines, which are replacing Chlorine in many drinking
water supplies, also has no effect on photo chemicals (at
least B&W chemicals). It is NOT removed by boiling but is
removed by an activated charcoal filter like a Brita filter.
Water should also be filtered before use, preferably before
boiling if you are going to boil it. Coffee filters work
fine.
Suggestions about the water are also valid for packaged
chemicals and for water used for diluting solutions.
Also, when mixing either do it yourself or packaged
formulas avoid beating air into the solution. This will
extend the life a bit. Stir enough to keep the powders in
suspension until dissolved but not so vigorously that you
get air into it. Occasionaly you will get a residue of
crystals in the solution especially with packaged chemicals.
This is often from carbonates in the water combining with
something in the developer. Usually these crystals will go
into solution as the mixed developer cools down to usable
temperature. If not a run through a coffee filter will get
rid of them.

When I post formulas they are from a source as close to
the original as I can get. I have both original Kodak and
Agfa/Ansco publications as well as old editions of the
_Photo-Lab-Index_ which has proven to be reliable.

There may or may not be any advantage to mixing your own
stuff but a relatively small collection of chemicals will
allow you to experiment with many variations of developers
as well as making fixng baths and all sorts of toners. Not
very many toners are available in packaged form any more so
there often isn't much choice but to make your own. The
other reason is that its fun to do and you can amaze your
friends by showing them your scientific chemistry lab.
Have fun:-)

--
---
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA

stefano bramato

Neutol should do. Likely you will have results very
similar to Dektol. Parcel it into small bottles and cap well.
Consider the use of small volumes of developer for print
developing. Eight ounces of solution should be plenty for 8x10s.
Also consider using the concentrate at a higher than usuall
dilution. Dan