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-   -   Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a Post Office? (http://www.photobanter.com/showthread.php?t=125523)

Danny D.[_4_] March 30th 13 03:14 AM

Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a Post Office?
 
Is it illegal to snap a photograph of a clerk inside a post office?

Today, in California, I tried to exchange a book of 32 cent
stamps for current stamps, which is something that I have been doing for
decades (whenever they change the prices) at a value-for-value
rate (lately I've been exchanging for "forever stamps" at the
current rate).

In the past, many times, I merely placed the stamps on a sheet
of paper, in the presence of the clerk, thereby making them
unstamped, but still valid.

However, after watching me, the clerk would not allow the
exchange, citing an unwritten "new regulation" that disallows
this common practice. I snapped photos of the transaction, in the
clear presence of everyone (there were about 3 clerks present),
and there was absolutely no protest (it as a large Nikon SLR
which I happened to have hanging on my neck as I was returning
from an outing and stopped at the Post Office by way of errand).

Later, I called the Officer in Charge of that Post Office, who
indignantly said I was breaking the law by taking a picture of
the clerk "without permission".

I must restate, it was clear as the sun shines that I was snapping
pictures, and NOBODY raised a word of protest - but - I must also
ask if there is ANY legal standing for the OIC's presumption that
I am guilty of breaking the law for doing so.

May I ask:
Legally, in California, in a Post Office, when nobody objects,
is it against the law to snap a photograph or otherwise record
the transaction?


Jennifer Murphy[_2_] March 30th 13 03:39 AM

Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a Post Office?
 
On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 02:14:30 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

May I ask:
Legally, in California, in a Post Office, when nobody objects,
is it against the law to snap a photograph or otherwise record
the transaction?


I have no idea what the law is about taking the photo, but I'm pretty
sure that whether anyone objects or not is irrelevent. Otherwise, I
could walk into a store, take what I want, and leave. If no one
objected, I'd be in the clear.

Unquestionably Confused March 30th 13 03:47 AM

Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a Post Office?
 
On 3/29/2013 9:14 PM, Danny D. wrote:
Is it illegal to snap a photograph of a clerk inside a post office?
Later, I called the Officer in Charge of that Post Office, who
indignantly said I was breaking the law by taking a picture of
the clerk "without permission".

I must restate, it was clear as the sun shines that I was snapping
pictures, and NOBODY raised a word of protest - but - I must also
ask if there is ANY legal standing for the OIC's presumption that
I am guilty of breaking the law for doing so.

May I ask:
Legally, in California, in a Post Office, when nobody objects,
is it against the law to snap a photograph or otherwise record
the transaction?




Sounds like there are two issues he

Your ability to exchange stamps that you've been doing, apparently,
since Christ was a pup. The second is this BS with the photos.

Want to have some fun AND get both questions answered? Go in to visit
the O-I-C and tell him how upset you are that you may have inadvertently
run afoul of some regulation that even his subordinates were not aware
of. "To get this cleared up, why don't you show me the regulation that
prohibits photography of this sort and while you're at it, show me the
regulation that prohibits me from turning in unused postage for credit?"

If/when he refuses or starts back peddling, look him in the eye and
request, then demand, if necessary that he reach out and get the postal
inspection service involved. If this pompous jerk is constipated, that
will clear him out real fast.

I've personally used this ploy when told by somebody who didn't know
better that this or that could not be done when, in fact, I already knew
the regulation and that it COULD be done. As soon as the Inspection
service "button" was pushed, their attitude changed dramatically.

Great fun! Go for it!





Floyd L. Davidson March 30th 13 03:54 AM

Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a Post Office?
 
"Danny D." wrote:
May I ask:
Legally, in California, in a Post Office, when nobody objects,
is it against the law to snap a photograph or otherwise record
the transaction?


It is private property that is open to the public.

That means you can photograph to your heart's content as
long as the manager or clerks do not object. They do
have the option to ask you to leave if you don't stop.
Not leaving would put you in violation of tresspass
laws.

Your described incident did not involve anyone
suggesting that you leave. Therefore you do not appear
to have broken any law.

(In fact I do not really know if it would be legal for a
postal employee to demand that you leave a Post Office
because you are taking pictures. If one did that, I
would consult an attorney if it was actually a problem.)

--
Floyd L. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

Robert Coe March 30th 13 05:14 AM

Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a Post Office?
 
On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 21:47:04 -0500, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:
: On 3/29/2013 9:14 PM, Danny D. wrote:
: Is it illegal to snap a photograph of a clerk inside a post office?
: Later, I called the Officer in Charge of that Post Office, who
: indignantly said I was breaking the law by taking a picture of
: the clerk "without permission".
:
: I must restate, it was clear as the sun shines that I was snapping
: pictures, and NOBODY raised a word of protest - but - I must also
: ask if there is ANY legal standing for the OIC's presumption that
: I am guilty of breaking the law for doing so.
:
: May I ask:
: Legally, in California, in a Post Office, when nobody objects,
: is it against the law to snap a photograph or otherwise record
: the transaction?
:
:
:
: Sounds like there are two issues he
:
: Your ability to exchange stamps that you've been doing, apparently,
: since Christ was a pup. The second is this BS with the photos.
:
: Want to have some fun AND get both questions answered? Go in to visit
: the O-I-C and tell him how upset you are that you may have inadvertently
: run afoul of some regulation that even his subordinates were not aware
: of. "To get this cleared up, why don't you show me the regulation that
: prohibits photography of this sort and while you're at it, show me the
: regulation that prohibits me from turning in unused postage for credit?"
:
: If/when he refuses or starts back peddling, look him in the eye and
: request, then demand, if necessary that he reach out and get the postal
: inspection service involved. If this pompous jerk is constipated, that
: will clear him out real fast.
:
: I've personally used this ploy when told by somebody who didn't know
: better that this or that could not be done when, in fact, I already knew
: the regulation and that it COULD be done. As soon as the Inspection
: service "button" was pushed, their attitude changed dramatically.
:
: Great fun! Go for it!

The difference between your situation and that of the OP is that you knew the
legal ground you were on and the OP doesn't. Under the circumstances I'd
suggest that he not conflate the two issues. I'd deal with the stamp exchange
question by going to another post office and finding out what they have to
say. Only when that issue was settled (and maybe not even then) would I go
back to the first P.O. and deal with the photography issue.

FWIW, I once photographed an event in a post office (a tribute to the late
postmaster after whom the building was named), and nobody said a word. But of
course I wasn't there to complain about the service at the stamp window. :^)

Bob

Edward McArdle March 30th 13 07:59 AM

Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a Post Office?
 
This is actually the opposite of the question asked, but nowadays it is
possible to take a picture almost anywhere without anyone noticing.
There are places where you are forbidden to take photos (eg. with anything
over a 200mm lens at the Australian Open tennis), but it is simple to
break the rule. I have a small camera with a 5-100mm lens. As it is not
35mm, this is actually a 28 - 560 mm equivalent.
It is also forbidden to take videos at all - but almost any camera today
will take video.
And if you have a 20 megapixel camera, you can take a photo and blow up
that little bit in the middle.
And you don't have to put a camera up to your eye to take a picture.

--
Edward McArdle

Scott Schuckert March 30th 13 03:01 PM

Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a Post Office?
 
In article , Danny D.
wrote:

Is it illegal to snap a photograph of a clerk inside a post office?


Maybe. As a previous poster said, they have the right to ask you to
stop, and require you to leave if you don't. If you follow these
instructions, you've haven't broken any laws; if you don't, it's
trespass. It's important to know that USPS facilities are private
property. Despite all appearances, the post office is no longer part of
the government; legally, they're a private company that's been given a
monopoly contract to deliver the mail.

Regarding the postage exchange, that rule, as far as I know, changed
some time ago. A friendly counter clerk MAY change stamps for you, if
the stamps are usable and he can put them back in his inventory. Stuck
onto a piece of paper, no way.

I'm not a postal employee, but my SO is - this this is gleaned from
many, many "how was your day" conversations...

MaxD March 30th 13 03:27 PM

Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a Post Office?
 
On 3/29/2013 11:31 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 00:14:49 -0400, Robert Coe wrote:

On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 21:47:04 -0500, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:
: On 3/29/2013 9:14 PM, Danny D. wrote:
: Is it illegal to snap a photograph of a clerk inside a post office?
: Later, I called the Officer in Charge of that Post Office, who
: indignantly said I was breaking the law by taking a picture of
: the clerk "without permission".
:
: I must restate, it was clear as the sun shines that I was snapping
: pictures, and NOBODY raised a word of protest - but - I must also
: ask if there is ANY legal standing for the OIC's presumption that
: I am guilty of breaking the law for doing so.
:
: May I ask:
: Legally, in California, in a Post Office, when nobody objects,
: is it against the law to snap a photograph or otherwise record
: the transaction?
:
:
:
: Sounds like there are two issues he
:
: Your ability to exchange stamps that you've been doing, apparently,
: since Christ was a pup. The second is this BS with the photos.
:
: Want to have some fun AND get both questions answered? Go in to visit
: the O-I-C and tell him how upset you are that you may have inadvertently
: run afoul of some regulation that even his subordinates were not aware
: of. "To get this cleared up, why don't you show me the regulation that
: prohibits photography of this sort and while you're at it, show me the
: regulation that prohibits me from turning in unused postage for credit?"
:
: If/when he refuses or starts back peddling, look him in the eye and
: request, then demand, if necessary that he reach out and get the postal
: inspection service involved. If this pompous jerk is constipated, that
: will clear him out real fast.
:
: I've personally used this ploy when told by somebody who didn't know
: better that this or that could not be done when, in fact, I already knew
: the regulation and that it COULD be done. As soon as the Inspection
: service "button" was pushed, their attitude changed dramatically.
:
: Great fun! Go for it!

The difference between your situation and that of the OP is that you knew the
legal ground you were on and the OP doesn't. Under the circumstances I'd
suggest that he not conflate the two issues. I'd deal with the stamp exchange
question by going to another post office and finding out what they have to
say. Only when that issue was settled (and maybe not even then) would I go
back to the first P.O. and deal with the photography issue.

FWIW, I once photographed an event in a post office (a tribute to the late
postmaster after whom the building was named), and nobody said a word. But of
course I wasn't there to complain about the service at the stamp window. :^)

Bob


There are some battles not worth the fight. As I understand it, the
OP took a photograph of post office employees in a post office while
they were at work without asking their permission. While they did not
object at the time, they were not given the opportunity to agree or
object.

The supervisor, though, does disagree. For some reason, he or she is
upset about it.

There's nothing to be gained by finding out the legalities of the
situation. It's done. The OP has his photos and it will blow over at
the post office if it's dropped here.

If the OP presses this, what's going to happen is that the supervisor
is going to take it out on the employees. Any further fuss over this
is only going create problems for the employees.

I take a lot of candid photographs, and I believe in the rights of the
photographer as much as anyone here, but I'm not going to get some
employee's ass chewed out by his supervisor even if the supervisor is
wrong.

I'd let it go.



FWIW. I've never met a post office employee who didn't deserve an ass
chewing. Just sayin'.

Savageduck[_3_] March 30th 13 04:33 PM

Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a Post Office?
 
On 2013-03-30 07:27:06 -0700, MaxD said:

On 3/29/2013 11:31 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:


L Snip

I take a lot of candid photographs, and I believe in the rights of the
photographer as much as anyone here, but I'm not going to get some
employee's ass chewed out by his supervisor even if the supervisor is
wrong.

I'd let it go.



FWIW. I've never met a post office employee who didn't deserve an ass
chewing. Just sayin'.


Then you ought to take a visit to the Paso Robles, California post
office, where you will find staff as efficient, and helpful as you
might find in some of the best managed, user friendly businesses in the
country. It is a fairly large post office which deals with the needs of
a medium size town and the vast rural delivery needs found in Northern
San Luis Obispo County. I can't remember being treated less than
civilly, or getting less than good service from any of that branch's
employees.

Methinks you are tarring all USPS employees with the same brush.


--
Regards,

Savageduck


Robert Coe March 30th 13 05:38 PM

Is it really illegal to snap a picture of a clerk in a Post Office?
 
On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 08:27:06 -0600, MaxD wrote:
: On 3/29/2013 11:31 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
: On Sat, 30 Mar 2013 00:14:49 -0400, Robert Coe wrote:
:
: On Fri, 29 Mar 2013 21:47:04 -0500, Unquestionably Confused
: wrote:
: : On 3/29/2013 9:14 PM, Danny D. wrote:
: : Is it illegal to snap a photograph of a clerk inside a post office?
: : Later, I called the Officer in Charge of that Post Office, who
: : indignantly said I was breaking the law by taking a picture of
: : the clerk "without permission".
: :
: : I must restate, it was clear as the sun shines that I was snapping
: : pictures, and NOBODY raised a word of protest - but - I must also
: : ask if there is ANY legal standing for the OIC's presumption that
: : I am guilty of breaking the law for doing so.
: :
: : May I ask:
: : Legally, in California, in a Post Office, when nobody objects,
: : is it against the law to snap a photograph or otherwise record
: : the transaction?
: :
: :
: :
: : Sounds like there are two issues he
: :
: : Your ability to exchange stamps that you've been doing, apparently,
: : since Christ was a pup. The second is this BS with the photos.
: :
: : Want to have some fun AND get both questions answered? Go in to visit
: : the O-I-C and tell him how upset you are that you may have inadvertently
: : run afoul of some regulation that even his subordinates were not aware
: : of. "To get this cleared up, why don't you show me the regulation that
: : prohibits photography of this sort and while you're at it, show me the
: : regulation that prohibits me from turning in unused postage for credit?"
: :
: : If/when he refuses or starts back peddling, look him in the eye and
: : request, then demand, if necessary that he reach out and get the postal
: : inspection service involved. If this pompous jerk is constipated, that
: : will clear him out real fast.
: :
: : I've personally used this ploy when told by somebody who didn't know
: : better that this or that could not be done when, in fact, I already knew
: : the regulation and that it COULD be done. As soon as the Inspection
: : service "button" was pushed, their attitude changed dramatically.
: :
: : Great fun! Go for it!
:
: The difference between your situation and that of the OP is that you knew the
: legal ground you were on and the OP doesn't. Under the circumstances I'd
: suggest that he not conflate the two issues. I'd deal with the stamp exchange
: question by going to another post office and finding out what they have to
: say. Only when that issue was settled (and maybe not even then) would I go
: back to the first P.O. and deal with the photography issue.
:
: FWIW, I once photographed an event in a post office (a tribute to the late
: postmaster after whom the building was named), and nobody said a word. But of
: course I wasn't there to complain about the service at the stamp window. :^)
:
: Bob
:
: There are some battles not worth the fight. As I understand it, the
: OP took a photograph of post office employees in a post office while
: they were at work without asking their permission. While they did not
: object at the time, they were not given the opportunity to agree or
: object.
:
: The supervisor, though, does disagree. For some reason, he or she is
: upset about it.
:
: There's nothing to be gained by finding out the legalities of the
: situation. It's done. The OP has his photos and it will blow over at
: the post office if it's dropped here.
:
: If the OP presses this, what's going to happen is that the supervisor
: is going to take it out on the employees. Any further fuss over this
: is only going create problems for the employees.
:
: I take a lot of candid photographs, and I believe in the rights of the
: photographer as much as anyone here, but I'm not going to get some
: employee's ass chewed out by his supervisor even if the supervisor is
: wrong.
:
: I'd let it go.
:
:
:
: FWIW. I've never met a post office employee who didn't deserve an ass
: chewing. Just sayin'.

I have, often. Every time I've done business at the window in the post office
across the street from my office, the clerks have been unfailingly friendly
and helpful.

Bob


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