dynamic range and exposure latitude?
I don't have access to current professional equipment, software, or
media, so I will rely on feedback and past experience, and the criticism thereof video sensor and filtration device color space assumptions face a complexity with other output than CRT (LCD, LED, Plasma, OLED, and I read better LCD is on the way) ICC solution to dynamic range is based on ProPhoto RGB according to wikipedia (there is also Adobe RGB, and Wide Gamut RGB, on wikipedia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProPhoto_RGB implemented in RIMM,ERIMM, and ROMM http://www.color.org http://www.color.org/chardata/rgb/rimmrgb.xalter http://www.color.org/chardata/rgb/erimmrgb.xalter http://www.color.org/romm.xalter ICC does not reveal the assumed film or idealistic/standard film used in ProPhoto RGB ProPhotoRGB chromaticity coordinates are linear with CIE chromaticity coordinates CIE tone is linear with light (L,Y,B,V) or linear with lightness (L*) film due to chemical considerations of activity and exhaustion and design for dynamic range treatments, has a toe and shoulder modeled and designed using a quadratic as opposed to linear contrast, such as a rational quadratic which does not bend over the toe or shoulder since film contrast is not linear, some calculations must be performed to have it linear ICC does not reveal such considerations Kodak designed ProPhoto RGB, probably in light of sRGB workflows being accepted, as opposed to using an ideal digital camera and an ideal digital projector as the RIMM,ERIMM, ROMM (additive color used in displays has more dynamic range than subtractive colors used prints) one Kodak implementation I know called Premier (a system of scanning film, manipulating and editing film, and outputting film) used a linearized film assumption I believe this linearization was achieved by unbuilding the rationall quadratic contrast, and some form of interimage of an Ektachrome film of the time, be it spectral sensitivity interimage or chemical process interimage, I don't really know which one or if both were used, I heard it once but I forget some use cases would prefer color matching as opposed to appearance matching and would not use RIMM,ERIMM, ROMM, they would use CIE RGB but most use cases involve a viewing and acceptance of an image, even if it just a consumer looking at something and saying it is "good enough" what is ProPhotoRGB? Is it a negative with exposure latitude suiting it to ERIMM? if so this could complement many hybrid workflows where transparency film output is used or copied in an analog fashion in fact you could design a color negative film to be scanned, manipulated, output, and projected with ICC color management you unbuild the non-linearity and crosstalk of the film as long as it's image dyes chromaticity coordinates result in something close enough to linear with CIE chromaticity coordinates, making it easier to scan on a scanner whose exposure, filtration and sensitivity are designed to be linear with CIE chromaticity coordinates manipulation algorithms relative to CIE are widely available, but you could add analog editing, and hybrid algorithms to the mix you can design a projector (exposure, filtration) in a digital environment, with the right analog and hybrid manipulation consideration, to display a color negative instead of using a transparency intermediate such a projector design leads to an easy film recorder design same with monitor design ... is film dead? should you snip most of the above? are professional digital capture, manipulation and output already exceeding color negatives for dynamic range and exposure latitude? even considering push and pull chemical processing? then why not a digital RIMM,ERIMM and ROMM? the ICC site says color managed workflows have not taken hold in digital, I read once, is this because of sRGB(video) and ProPhotoRGB(film) workflow interference? are digital RIMM,ERIMM and ROMM to far outside of CIE eye based considerations? then why not use CIE RGB for the RIMM,ERIMM, and ROMM probably the best bet considering printed page is not dead and Perceptual Reference Medium (PRM) can be used in ICC http://www.color.org/v4_prmg.xalter is to give customers choices for their use cases of what reference suits them things like lighting, surround, flare, viewing angle, measurement considerations likewise could all be incorporated a little more education,, maybe too much for "good enough" color, especially since "more attractive color" exists some form of device independent "accurate" color and appearance must be a starting point? for consumers, white balance might not be the only scene balance that is used, you could use analog and hybrid models to get to the "more attractive color" achieved in consumer films like "pop" saturation if you think I am a troll, give me a entry level imaging systems job in my area and I will have to keep my ideas to myself, I don't quite qualify for standards or open systems work, so here I am on usenet, wikipedia, wiktionary and the web I have an undergrad honors degree in ChemE with minors in polymer science and math (forget most of this) I know a little MATLAB and SAS I know basic programming on punch cards and punch card readers I know Fortran data flow programming I know modular Pascal data flow programming I know a little C I know a little object oriented (OO) architecture/design I know a little C++ OO programming I know the basics of java systems and OO programming I just can't get abstract IDEs like netbeans or operating system required libraries, out of my head to write a complex program maybe I should spend more time learning java than talking on usenet -- Dale |
dynamic range and exposure latitude?
In article ,
Dale wrote: you can design a projector (exposure, filtration) in a digital environment, with the right analog and hybrid manipulation consideration, to display a color negative instead of using a transparency intermediate such a projector design leads to an easy film recorder design I did some film recorder development about 30 years ago. I don't think "easy" is a term I'd use in conjunction with their design (assuming you wanted any sort of decent quality, anyhow). Isaac |
dynamic range and exposure latitude?
On 02/26/2014 11:08 PM, Dale wrote:
one Kodak implementation I know called Premier (a system of scanning film, manipulating and editing film, and outputting film) used a linearized film assumption sort of like applying "printing density" if you know what that is, maybe this will explain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cineon -- Dale |
dynamic range and exposure latitude?
On 02/26/2014 11:08 PM, Dale wrote:
if you think I am a troll, give me a entry level imaging systems job in my area and I will have to keep my ideas to myself, I don't quite qualify for standards or open systems work, so here I am on usenet, wikipedia, wiktionary and the web I have an undergrad honors degree in ChemE with minors in polymer science and math (forget most of this) I know a little MATLAB and SAS I know basic programming on punch cards and punch card readers I know Fortran data flow programming I know modular Pascal data flow programming I know a little C I know a little object oriented (OO) architecture/design I know a little C++ OO programming I know the basics of java systems and OO programming I just can't get abstract IDEs like netbeans or operating system required libraries, out of my head to write a complex program maybe I should spend more time learning java than talking on usenet 9 years on the job imaging R&D at Kodak 17 years reflection and internet/wikipedia, etc. study -- Dale |
dynamic range and exposure latitude?
On 02/26/2014 11:58 PM, isw wrote:
In article , Dale wrote: you can design a projector (exposure, filtration) in a digital environment, with the right analog and hybrid manipulation consideration, to display a color negative instead of using a transparency intermediate such a projector design leads to an easy film recorder design I did some film recorder development about 30 years ago. I don't think "easy" is a term I'd use in conjunction with their design (assuming you wanted any sort of decent quality, anyhow). Isaac I'm just talking to myself while I write and share my thoughts, sometimes I'm wrong, I even have two kook awards on alt.usenet.kooks from my political, philosophical, psychological,, sociological and religious viewpoints on other groups, feel free to nominate me for another kook award, I am not a troll, I am a kook never did any hardware development, I did paper development, process development, hybrid systems development no research assignments, an engineer not a scientist, but I dabbled in science when I could I'd like to think my mainly applications work that could have led up to system work at Kodak R&D for 9 years contributed to a little system development, or so I was complemented sometimes I had a good boss that told me to specialize and not try to understand everything about imaging, there are few generals in imaging standards, people like David McDowell you really have to read into my rudimentary explanations, somethings are outright wrong no doubt, just putting some pieces together in 17 years of reflection and internet -- Dale |
dynamic range and exposure latitude?
On 02/26/2014 11:08 PM, Dale wrote:
maybe I should spend more time learning java than talking on usenet and Software as a Service (SaaS) Cloud Computing java requires a license to distribute development, so C or C++ on my linux system is where I will look at metafile (vector/raster combinations) imaging stuff I think a specialization, better suited to me than trying to be a general of the whole imaging industry with my limited experience -- Dale |
dynamic range and exposure latitude?
On 03/01/2014 06:08 AM, Jeroen wrote:
Hey Dale, You will be happy to learn that the movie and TV industries are collaborating on new standards for any or all of: - high dynamic range (luminance between 10^-4 and 10^4 nit) - wide color gamut (the entire visible spectrum, and more) - higher static resolution (4k x 2k, 8k x 4k), and - higher frame rates (60, 120, maybe 240 fps). mpeg or ICC or ? About adapting images to a limited dynamic range or color gamut, that is a manual artistic process called "color grading". It is an illusion that this would be left to the built-in properties of a chemical or electronic system. if film workflows exist long enough, I thinkk you could design a hbrid system with ONE film, ONE chemical process, and a scanner, writer, and projector best suited to such film The best that the industry can provide is a transparent standard for carrying the images to the viewers, the rest is still up to the creative people of "Hollywood". I think the film could be negative,, higher exposure latitude, but you would have to have a scanner, writer, projector designed for that film, this does mean approvals/edits would have to be viewing "soft" display or display(output) approvals a digital projector could receive the right codes values from the right ICC color management system after talking about hybrid systems for awhile here I decided to visit Kodak's website and see what analog and hybrid products they had http"//www.kodak.com looks like consumer is only digital I think no sight of the portrait market I think commercial products are all digital I think but there is a huge catalog of motion picture film, chemistry, filters, etc. http://motion.kodak.com/motion/index.htm http://motion.kodak.com/motion/Produ...tion/index.htm they claim video clips highlights, there is no "toe" in digital contrast, and small gamut sRGB doesn't help, I see dress white shirts clipped on my CRT television they don't mention spectral reflectances, wide gamut RIMM, ERIMM, ROMM, like ProPhoto RGB don't even capture all of the eye's colors, let alone the clipping of a surface color when wide spectral reflectances hit it, this was a consideration with CCD scanning when I worked at Kodak R&D 17 years ago http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProPhoto_RGB http://www.color.org/search.xalter?q=rimm&go.x=0&go.y=0 http://www.color.org/search.xalter?q...&go.x=0&go.y=0 http://www.color.org/search.xalter?q=romm&go.x=0&go.y=0 are people still using film for quality? does film still have a dynamic range and exposure latitude advantage? (film contrast is not linear like gamma, it has a toe and shoulder due to chemical activity and exhaustion and optimization thereof, that curves off highlights and shadows leaving them reproducible do people still prefer the "look and feel" of some films like B&W? these "looks and feels" could be put into abstract ICC profiles with the right film characteristic information the right film characterization information is not even provided in the standardization of ProPhoto RGB as ICC's RIMM,ERIMM, and ROMM http://www.color.org with the right film characterization information, one could develop a hybrid ICC system to suit Kodak's motion picture catalog, if there is time before digital capture, manipulation and projection replace the industry's establishment investment such a hybrid system, and the abstract ICC profiles mentioned above, could reduce Kodak's catalog to ONE input/output film and ONE chemistry, if such film was co-optimized with the right hybrid scanning, manipulation, and output if film still has a dynamic range and exposure latitude advantage, perhaps as it's standardization as RIMM, ERIMM, and ROMM, a color negative could be scanned, output and projected with the right ICC processing using film and equipment characterization information a film program cost around $5million when I was at Kodak. I have no idea how much or fast an equipment program would take but at least Kodak should share their film characterization information for optimization in existing information, use in existing digital manipulation and incorporation in abstract ICC profiles, this would allow more quality for the film, unless somehow you say they are operating on a price only paradigm included below is a list of some necessary film characterization information, an expert could add to or correct this list both empirical (easy way) and mechanistic (hard way) are supported mathematically by the ICC, but you could do your own system http:/www.color.org empirical characterization entails printing an equipment code value target to the "calibrated" equipment and relating it mathematically as a profile to the color of the profile connection space, usually cubic, a three dimensional profile for 3 colorant mediums, I know there are at least or there once was 4 colorant mediums from Fuji, I'll allow you to derive this from my post yourself, it is not hard if you know it even B&W colorants like silver halides have a hue that must be either maintained or translated in the ICC profile like a three colorant system, the eye is a three colorant system, I will allow you to derive B&W yourself, it is not hard if you know it with the advent of RIMM, ERIMM, and ROMM in ICC you can use digital manipulation for hybrid systems (you can search for these on the ICC site and they are from ProPhoto RGB according to wikipedia) so why would you want to do it the hard way, mechanistically? 1) want to retain analog manipulation methods 2) want to have analog manipulation algorithms within digital 3) want to an analog capture of scene colorimetry 4) multi-stage analog/hybrid systems do not calibrate (steady-state calibration is a prerequisite for profile characterization) 5) want to design new analog equipment or manipulation 6) want to design new sensitized media for a hybrid system ( a film program was around 5 million at Kodak 17 years ago) 7) want to design a better analog RIMM, ERIMM or ROMM so how to do it the hard way? first, you will need a lot of information, the preferred way of getting this method is from analog media, equipment and software companies, as opposed to the investment yourself, some analog technology really requires single layer coatings to resolve crosstalk from spectral sensitivity and chemical processing, chemical processing can be just the way it is, process variability across or inside labs, or by design with things like DIR or DIAR couplers intended to reduce or optimize chemical crosstalk http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_motion_picture_film Kodak has licensed some hybrid or analog technology to IMAX, the analog industry may be willing to deal at this point, additionally some analog and hybrid information may be patented, when I was at Kodak R&D many things were not patented due to other nations not respecting intellectual property, PhotoCD was patented as a last ditch effort to leverage capture film into digital systems so what type of information will you need? spectral sensitivity of capture mediums (for some systems digital capture sensitivity needs resolved to sensor and filtration) spectrophotometry of print (subtractive) output mediums (spectral data might have to be resolved to light source and filtration) spectroradiometry of display (additive) output mediums spectroradiometry of analog and hybrid printers (for some systems such radiometry of equipment needs resolved to light source and filtration) chemical colorant response to light of medium (DlogE) interimage, overall crosstalk of medium single layer coatings of mediums to resolve chemical versus sensitivity crosstalk what are the use cases? 1) captures (digital, hybrid or analog)(scene or like printing density) 2) manipulations (digital, hybrid or analog) 3) outputs (digital, hybrid or analog) spectral information is a one dimensional look-up table without crosstalk crosstalks are at least a linear matrix DlogE is best represented with a rational quadratic, higher math effects the central linearity, complete linearity effects toe and shoulder, highlight and shadow detail where dynamic range is low, this is still a one dimensional look-up table digital contrast is linear, gamma hybrid input/output contrast is calibrated for gamma in most cases multi-stage systems typically use some standard assumptions, mostly what equipment/software/measurement the systems engineer is working with any mathematician can take it from here to get all use cases if you want me to do a use case, just reply, I have a lot of time on my hands by the way, there is a book about "making" Kodak film, but not "designing" it, maybe the author might want to add a understandable compilation of this to his book http://www.makingkodakfilm.com/ Many displays will have low dynamic range, narrow color gamut, low resolution or low frame rates. Maintaining compatibility with this legacy requires some form of remapping of the content to the target display gamut. If this is not sufficiently predictable then the creative community may decide to stick with the old standards, because then at least the result is entirely predictable. if you allowed people their choice of RIMM, ERIMM, ROMM, PRM(G) or some appearance that is standard to their use case you could solve this the "looks and feels" of variety of film, filters, etc. could be put into ICC abstract profiles, like they put such edits into such profiles Best, -- J. -- Dale |
dynamic range and exposure latitude?
Hi,
On 2014-03-01 13:17, Dale wrote: On 03/01/2014 06:08 AM, Jeroen wrote: You will be happy to learn that the movie and TV industries are collaborating on new standards for any or all of: - high dynamic range (luminance between 10^-4 and 10^4 nit) - wide color gamut (the entire visible spectrum, and more) - higher static resolution (4k x 2k, 8k x 4k), and - higher frame rates (60, 120, maybe 240 fps). mpeg or ICC or ? SMPTE, MPEG, BDA, ITU, ... if film workflows exist long enough, I thinkk you could design a hbrid system with ONE film, ONE chemical process, and a scanner, writer, and projector best suited to such film Not likely, the future is digital and digital intermediate. I think the film could be negative,, higher exposure latitude, but you would have to have a scanner, writer, projector designed for that film, this does mean approvals/edits would have to be viewing "soft" display or display(output) approvals HDR digital cameras already exist. It's the displays that are the problem. Or, more often, the lamp power. a digital projector could receive the right codes values from the right ICC color management system Yes yes. Accuracy in Digital Cinema is of prime importance. http"//www.kodak.com they claim video clips highlights, there is no "toe" in digital contrast, and small gamut sRGB doesn't help, I see dress white shirts clipped on my CRT television This is all typical of low dynamic range TV. Trust me that things are about to change in a big way. with the right film characterization information, one could develop a hybrid ICC system to suit Kodak's motion picture catalog, if there is time before digital capture, manipulation and projection replace the industry's establishment investment Not likely to happen. Digital is so much more flexible. But the experience of the Kodak experts is always appreciated. so what type of information will you need? Information is one thing, understanding how to use it is another thing. And then to keep it simple... any mathematician can take it from here to get all use cases if you want me to do a use case, just reply, I have a lot of time on my hands You are making that clear. ;-) Today's problem are of a different natu how to best combine legacy with future needs. To build a standard that can span decades. And how to reduce the traditional television artefacts due to trying to do too much with too few bits. Many displays will have low dynamic range, narrow color gamut, low resolution or low frame rates. Maintaining compatibility with this legacy requires some form of remapping of the content to the target display gamut. If this is not sufficiently predictable then the creative community may decide to stick with the old standards, because then at least the result is entirely predictable. if you allowed people their choice of RIMM, ERIMM, ROMM, PRM(G) or some appearance that is standard to their use case you could solve this Sounds good. Maybe you can give some thought on how a DCI P3 color gamut carried in a BT.2020 wide color gamut can be automatically mapped back into a BT.709 (sRGB) color gamut ? There will be a lot of need for that, because most UHD ("4k") standards will be based on BT.2020 color primaries. Best, -- J |
dynamic range and exposure latitude?
On 03/01/2014 08:48 AM, Jeroen wrote:
Sounds good. Maybe you can give some thought on how a DCI P3 color gamut carried in a BT.2020 wide color gamut can be automatically mapped back into a BT.709 (sRGB) color gamut ? There will be a lot of need for that, because most UHD ("4k") standards will be based on BT.2020 color primaries. you can do it two ways, mechanistic (hard way), empirical (easy way) there is a problem of "repurposing" a smaller gamut back into a larger gamut, best to keep the original with profile information then just "purpose" it again -- Dale |
dynamic range and exposure latitude?
On 03/01/2014 08:48 AM, Jeroen wrote:
Sounds good. Maybe you can give some thought on how a DCI P3 color gamut carried in a BT.2020 wide color gamut can be automatically mapped back into a BT.709 (sRGB) color gamut ? There will be a lot of need for that, because most UHD ("4k") standards will be based on BT.2020 color primaries. brings up a storage/portability issue, easily solved with ICC keep a copy of the image in a device independent space with appropriate RIMM, ERIMM,, ROMM applied like the profile connection space and then "purpose" it again instead of "repurposing" a file in an ouput device space you could also keep your edits on the file as ICC abstract profiles along with the device independent file,, or just keep the edited file in the working space mapping gamut can be done the hard way (mechanistic) or the easy way (empirical) the easy way is too print a wide variety of machine code values to the output devices, measure the color or spectral characteristics, and then choose whether to convert it colorimetrically, absolute colorimetrically or maintaing saturation (perceptual mapping involves PRM(G) which is a print space, smaller than display/projection/editing for film or digital ideally you create a gamut conversions to the profile connection space, so they are device independent and can be "purposed" instead of "repurposed" I don't recall the mathematics of gamut mapping, I wasn't that experienced, but a three dimensional look up table could be used with linear or high power polynomials -- Dale |
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:52 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
PhotoBanter.com