Harvey wrote:
Trying to be funny when it obviously isn't your forté if that post is anything to go by. OTOH Martin is pretty accomplished photog which counts more around here... -- -- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI gallery]: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- [SI rulz]: http://www.aliasimages.com/si/rulz.html -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch. |
From my experience it depends on *whose* 8MP are you referring to. A 8MP
JPEG (not talking about RAW) produces by 1DM2 far far far better result than a 8MP output from those "prosumer" DC like even Olympus 8080 or Canon Pro 1. Take a few pictures with both sides and you'll know what I'm talking about. And I don't think those "prosumer" produced better image than my Nikkor + Fuji. "Matt" .. . I heard someone say that 8Mp digital cameras were the equivalent to 35mm film quality? Does this mean they have the theoretical equivalent resolution? Are they the equivalent to 35mm? |
From my experience it depends on *whose* 8MP are you referring to. A 8MP
JPEG (not talking about RAW) produces by 1DM2 far far far better result than a 8MP output from those "prosumer" DC like even Olympus 8080 or Canon Pro 1. Take a few pictures with both sides and you'll know what I'm talking about. And I don't think those "prosumer" produced better image than my Nikkor + Fuji. "Matt" .. . I heard someone say that 8Mp digital cameras were the equivalent to 35mm film quality? Does this mean they have the theoretical equivalent resolution? Are they the equivalent to 35mm? |
"PhotoMan" wrote: Are they the equivalent to 35mm? Download some Mark II sample images from the Canon site and resize them carefully and print them to see for yourself, though these jpegs aren't as smooth as RAW file conversions. Where does the 16.7MP full frame Canon EOS1Ds Mk II fit into this discussion? Here's a _simulation_. Both images are taken with 35mm lenses. Film: Mamiya 645ProTL, 35/3.5, tripod, mirror lock up, f/8, Tech Pan scanned at 4000 dpi on a Nikon 8000. Digital: 300D, 17-40/4.0 at 35mm, f/8.0, hand held, upsampled to match the magnification of the film scan. http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/34473670/original David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan |
"PhotoMan" wrote: Are they the equivalent to 35mm? Download some Mark II sample images from the Canon site and resize them carefully and print them to see for yourself, though these jpegs aren't as smooth as RAW file conversions. Where does the 16.7MP full frame Canon EOS1Ds Mk II fit into this discussion? Here's a _simulation_. Both images are taken with 35mm lenses. Film: Mamiya 645ProTL, 35/3.5, tripod, mirror lock up, f/8, Tech Pan scanned at 4000 dpi on a Nikon 8000. Digital: 300D, 17-40/4.0 at 35mm, f/8.0, hand held, upsampled to match the magnification of the film scan. http://www.pbase.com/davidjl/image/34473670/original David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan |
Bill Hilton wrote:
From: "Matt" I heard someone say that 8Mp digital cameras were the equivalent to 35mm film quality? A dSLR like the Canon 1D Mark II with 8 Mpixels and a large sensor seems to produce better large prints for me than ASA 100 speed Provia 100 F or Velvia scanned with a 4,000 dpi scanner. I'm getting 16x20" prints from the 1D that are better than any prints that size I've gotten with even Velvia 50. But 8 Mpix from a smaller sensor camera might give different results, so "it depends" on where the 8 Mpixels came from and what kind of film you are using for your comparison. Does this mean they have the theoretical equivalent resolution? No, fine grained film still does better at resolving lines on test targets, yet the digital prints look better ... how? Because of the lack of apparent grain. Digital simply blows up better than film. Are they the equivalent to 35mm? Download some Mark II sample images from the Canon site and resize them carefully and print them to see for yourself, though these jpegs aren't as smooth as RAW file conversions. Here's a good summary by Roger Clark of the film vs digital debate. Others give digital a wider edge, still others feel film is much better, but what he describes is close to the majority viewpoint. http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedeta....summary1.html While most who have worked with digital camera images agree that because of the "smoothness" of digital images, they can be enlarged more than film images. My testing, summarized on the above page, shows that fine grained film has higher spatial resolution than 8-mpixel digital camera images, but the digital camera images have several times higher signal-to-noise. People infer image quality as a function of both spatial resolution and signal-to-noise. While this is a subjective concept, I've started some experiments to test this "apparent image quality," or AIQ. My initial results are showing to first order that there is an approximate equal trade for signal-to- noise versus spatial resolution. Thus, if you had a digital camera that produced 8 megapixels and twice the signal to noise as fine grained film, the apparent digital camera megapixels could be doubled when comparing to film. So that 8-megapixel image would have the "apparent image quality" of 16 megapixels if compared to the lower signal-to-noise film. Since my tests show the spatial resolution of fine grained 35mm film like Fuji Velvia is around 16 mpixels digital equivalent, then that 8-mpixel digital camera produces similar apparent image quality to 35mm fine-grained film. But high end DSLrs, like the Canon 1D Mark II have several times the signal to noise of film, so this boosts the apparent image quality by the same factor as the ratio in the signal-to-noise values, propelling the 1D Mark II images higher than fine grained 35mm film. While my research is preliminary, it does seem to agree with what people are saying, and because people look at different things (image smoothness versus spatial detail), it shows there is a lot of room for interpretation. Finally, many responses in this group say "film" but not what kind of film. Fast film has lower spatial resolution and noise (grain) then fine-grained film. One must specify what kind of film, as well as film format (35mm versus 4x5) for these discussions to have any meaning. It will be a while before I complete my testing on AIQ and get web pages up. If my research trend holds, then the ~16 megapixel cameras will have ~64 AIQ mpixel film equivalent, which is well into the higher medium format size range. Impressive! Roger http://www.clarkvision.com |
"Alan Browne" wrote in message .. . Harvey wrote: Trying to be funny when it obviously isn't your forté if that post is anything to go by. OTOH Martin is pretty accomplished photog which counts more around here... http://www.btinternet.com/~mcsalty//...c/disabled.jpg ... amazing. |
"Alan Browne" wrote in message .. . Harvey wrote: Trying to be funny when it obviously isn't your forté if that post is anything to go by. OTOH Martin is pretty accomplished photog which counts more around here... http://www.btinternet.com/~mcsalty//...c/disabled.jpg ... amazing. |
I got a Nikon d70 digital SLR 6MP on the basis that the sensor is larger
than the 8mp models even if it's fewer pixels. I'm not really qualified to judge but it seems to me the pics are a bit fuzzy and do not compare to the amazing detail of the 8MP digicams I saw. Another thing I was told is that the metering sensors was way more advanced than the 8MP prosumer cams and I guess I'm hoping it has a better dynamic range and is basically more sensitive and responsive to difficult situations due to the larger sensor. It cost $1000 for the body but then with a lense & extra batteries, a 2g Microdrive that more than doubled the cost. I think I was told that the raw files are more capable of being enlarged than an 8MP though I don't know about that. Another consideration is that the 8MP models are pushing the limit and they have some problems like purple fringing on high contrast edges which is really very annoying and noise level for night shots can be pretty bad for the 8MP prosumer models. I've found that if I just barely get a bad picture in tough lighting with this camera I can process it is photoshop to an amazing degree because there is a lot less noise & the quality is there to work with. This guy has a decent optical viewfinder like a 35mm & it's super fast and light on battery usage so it's no problem to shoot 400 pics in a day-long excusion with room for another couple hundred pics if something else came up. ¤T¸}¤j«L wrote: From my experience it depends on *whose* 8MP are you referring to. A 8MP JPEG (not talking about RAW) produces by 1DM2 far far far better result than a 8MP output from those "prosumer" DC like even Olympus 8080 or Canon Pro 1. Take a few pictures with both sides and you'll know what I'm talking about. And I don't think those "prosumer" produced better image than my Nikkor + Fuji. "Matt" .. . I heard someone say that 8Mp digital cameras were the equivalent to 35mm film quality? Does this mean they have the theoretical equivalent resolution? Are they the equivalent to 35mm? |
I got a Nikon d70 digital SLR 6MP on the basis that the sensor is larger
than the 8mp models even if it's fewer pixels. I'm not really qualified to judge but it seems to me the pics are a bit fuzzy and do not compare to the amazing detail of the 8MP digicams I saw. Another thing I was told is that the metering sensors was way more advanced than the 8MP prosumer cams and I guess I'm hoping it has a better dynamic range and is basically more sensitive and responsive to difficult situations due to the larger sensor. It cost $1000 for the body but then with a lense & extra batteries, a 2g Microdrive that more than doubled the cost. I think I was told that the raw files are more capable of being enlarged than an 8MP though I don't know about that. Another consideration is that the 8MP models are pushing the limit and they have some problems like purple fringing on high contrast edges which is really very annoying and noise level for night shots can be pretty bad for the 8MP prosumer models. I've found that if I just barely get a bad picture in tough lighting with this camera I can process it is photoshop to an amazing degree because there is a lot less noise & the quality is there to work with. This guy has a decent optical viewfinder like a 35mm & it's super fast and light on battery usage so it's no problem to shoot 400 pics in a day-long excusion with room for another couple hundred pics if something else came up. ¤T¸}¤j«L wrote: From my experience it depends on *whose* 8MP are you referring to. A 8MP JPEG (not talking about RAW) produces by 1DM2 far far far better result than a 8MP output from those "prosumer" DC like even Olympus 8080 or Canon Pro 1. Take a few pictures with both sides and you'll know what I'm talking about. And I don't think those "prosumer" produced better image than my Nikkor + Fuji. "Matt" .. . I heard someone say that 8Mp digital cameras were the equivalent to 35mm film quality? Does this mean they have the theoretical equivalent resolution? Are they the equivalent to 35mm? |
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