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Peter October 4th 05 01:13 PM


Floyd Davidson wrote:
"Peter" wrote:

Amateur radio operators often use "c.w." as a kind
of informal short form for radiotelegraphy. It isn't
what it actually means.


Ahem... that is *precisely* what it means!


I should have known better than":

a) cite an example outside my own but in anothers'
field of expertise.

b) take position which is frequent result of flamewar
as somehow authoritative

Peter.
--



Jan Böhme October 4th 05 03:08 PM

Jeremy Nixon wrote:
Chris Brown wrote:

It's entirely unclear why you think this usage has "almost certainly
been destroyed beyond hope of recovery". If a cricket-nerd uses it,
it will be obvious from context which version they are talking
about, hence there is to be no confusion.


Do you really think that, even in the nerdiest of cricket-nerd circles,
anyone can ever again use that word without everyone who hears him
thinking of the "new" meaning?


Well, cricketeers have for a very long time used the very common
everyday word "silly" in a specialised, technical sense. Yet, it would
seem that nobody who has ever been within four foot of a cricket bat,
believes that the silly mid-off position is any more inherently stupid
than plain old mid-off.

With "google" there wouldn't be a theoretical chans to confuse the
everyday sense with the technical one. So why would you think
cricketeers would stop using it?

Jan B=F6hme


David Littlewood October 4th 05 04:43 PM

In article .com, Jan
Böhme writes

Well, cricketeers have for a very long time used the very common
everyday word "silly" in a specialised, technical sense. Yet, it would
seem that nobody who has ever been within four foot of a cricket bat,
believes that the silly mid-off position is any more inherently stupid
than plain old mid-off.

In the days before head protectors and boxes became universal, I think
anyone fielding at silly mid-off, or silly mid-on, or silly point, would
know exactly why the distinction was made.

David
--
David Littlewood

Siddhartha Jain October 4th 05 06:37 PM


Jan B=F6hme wrote:
Jeremy Nixon wrote:
Chris Brown wrote:

It's entirely unclear why you think this usage has "almost certainly
been destroyed beyond hope of recovery". If a cricket-nerd uses it,
it will be obvious from context which version they are talking
about, hence there is to be no confusion.


Do you really think that, even in the nerdiest of cricket-nerd circles,
anyone can ever again use that word without everyone who hears him
thinking of the "new" meaning?


Well, cricketeers have for a very long time used the very common
everyday word "silly" in a specialised, technical sense. Yet, it would
seem that nobody who has ever been within four foot of a cricket bat,
believes that the silly mid-off position is any more inherently stupid
than plain old mid-off.

With "google" there wouldn't be a theoretical chans to confuse the
everyday sense with the technical one. So why would you think
cricketeers would stop using it?
=20
Jan B=F6hme


Cricketers even :)

- Siddhartha


DoN. Nichols October 4th 05 07:56 PM

According to Floyd Davidson :
"Peter" wrote:

Amateur radio operators often use "c.w." as a kind
of informal short form for radiotelegraphy. It isn't
what it actually means.


[ ... ]

Here is the technical definition of "continious wave", according
to the FTC 1037C Standards, available at

http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/fs-1037/fs-1037c.htm

continuous wave (cw): A wave of constant amplitude and
constant frequency.

Clearly it means a transmission that is neither amplitude,
frequency, nor phase modulated. Any such modulation necessarily
must cause a discontinuity in the wave. The only thing you can
do is turn it on and off... which is called radio telegraphy!


Well ... to *my* mind, even keying (turning on and off) is a
form of amplitude modulation -- a rather extreme one at 100% modulation.

And it is certainly causing a discontinuity in the wave.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Bill Funk October 4th 05 08:57 PM

On 4 Oct 2005 18:56:56 GMT, (DoN. Nichols) wrote:

Clearly it means a transmission that is neither amplitude,
frequency, nor phase modulated. Any such modulation necessarily
must cause a discontinuity in the wave. The only thing you can
do is turn it on and off... which is called radio telegraphy!


Well ... to *my* mind, even keying (turning on and off) is a
form of amplitude modulation -- a rather extreme one at 100% modulation.

And it is certainly causing a discontinuity in the wave.

Enjoy,
DoN.


Years ago, when I started my hobby of listening, there were several
people who put forth the same argument.
The resounding response was: NO!
When the key is off, there's no wave present; you can't modulate
something that isn't present.
So, no, it's not a form of modulation.
It *is*, though, a form of data transmission. :-)

--
Bill Funk
Replace "g" with "a"
funktionality.blogspot.com

no_name October 5th 05 12:19 AM

Jan Böhme wrote:


With "google" there wouldn't be a theoretical chans to confuse the
everyday sense with the technical one. So why would you think
cricketeers would stop using it?


I thought the word in cricket was "googlie".

[email protected] October 5th 05 01:38 AM

no_name wrote:
Jan B=F6hme wrote:

With "google" there wouldn't be a theoretical chans to confuse the
everyday sense with the technical one. So why would you think
cricketeers would stop using it?


I thought the word in cricket was "googlie".


That is the cricket term.
I was puzzled as to what other use the word "google" has.
The website is Google and the cricketer bowls a googlie.


Jeremy Nixon October 5th 05 03:18 AM

wrote:

I thought the word in cricket was "googlie".


That is the cricket term.
I was puzzled as to what other use the word "google" has.
The website is Google and the cricketer bowls a googlie.


I included the dictionary definition in my previous post...

--
Jeremy |

Floyd Davidson October 5th 05 05:05 AM

(DoN. Nichols) wrote:
According to Floyd Davidson :

Here is the technical definition of "continious wave", according
to the FTC 1037C Standards, available at

http://www.its.bldrdoc.gov/fs-1037/fs-1037c.htm

continuous wave (cw): A wave of constant amplitude and
constant frequency.

Clearly it means a transmission that is neither amplitude,
frequency, nor phase modulated. Any such modulation necessarily
must cause a discontinuity in the wave. The only thing you can
do is turn it on and off... which is called radio telegraphy!


Well ... to *my* mind, even keying (turning on and off) is a
form of amplitude modulation -- a rather extreme one at 100% modulation.


Except that it is *not*.

And it is certainly causing a discontinuity in the wave.


If the wave is *not there*, it just doesn't exist and has no
characteristics. When it is there, it is not being modulated.
Turning it on and off may well produce some modulation effects,
but that "modulation" is not being used to pass information, and
in fact is a form of distortion that actually interferes with
the information rather than enabling it.

Of course when we get down to practical implementations, in
almost all cases we do have to treat c.w. as if it a modulation,
mostly in order to "shape" the distortion products in ways to
reduce the effects.

While the difference may not be obvious even at typical
c.w. speeds, and might be very hard to see at higher speeds...
think about such things as the very slow speeds often used for
such things as the original moon bounce work, or for breaking
path distance records at microwave frequencies. Circumstances
where a "dash" might be 10 or 20 seconds in length.

--
FloydL. Davidson http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

Floyd Davidson October 5th 05 05:15 AM

Bill Funk wrote:
On 4 Oct 2005 18:56:56 GMT, (DoN. Nichols) wrote:

Clearly it means a transmission that is neither amplitude,
frequency, nor phase modulated. Any such modulation necessarily
must cause a discontinuity in the wave. The only thing you can
do is turn it on and off... which is called radio telegraphy!


Well ... to *my* mind, even keying (turning on and off) is a
form of amplitude modulation -- a rather extreme one at 100% modulation.

And it is certainly causing a discontinuity in the wave.

Enjoy,
DoN.


Years ago, when I started my hobby of listening, there were several
people who put forth the same argument.
The resounding response was: NO!
When the key is off, there's no wave present; you can't modulate
something that isn't present.
So, no, it's not a form of modulation.
It *is*, though, a form of data transmission. :-)


All very true!

If course "data" in the sense the OP meant it, where he said

"all radio transmissions of voice, data, television and
everything else are ..."

Didn't mean "data" in the same sense that c.w. is a form of
"data transmission". For c.w., "data" equates to "information"
while in the original statement it equates to "computer data"
organized into 8 bit bytes.

And while c.w. does transmit information, it is not used for
"computer data".

--
FloydL. Davidson
http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)

Jan Böhme October 5th 05 10:24 AM

David Littlewood wrote:
In article .com, Jan
B=F6hme writes


In the days before head protectors and boxes became universal, I think
anyone fielding at silly mid-off, or silly mid-on, or silly point, would
know exactly why the distinction was made.


Hm. Then one wonders why my old fielding position isn't called
"extremely silly slip".

Jan B=F6hme


Jan Böhme October 5th 05 10:29 AM


no_name wrote:
Jan B=F6hme wrote:


With "google" there wouldn't be a theoretical chans to confuse the
everyday sense with the technical one. So why would you think
cricketeers would stop using it?


I thought the word in cricket was "googlie".


The noun, yes, which is what one would normally use in most instances.
But at least according to Jeremy's dictionary there is a corresponding
verb, "to google".=20

Jan B=F6hme


no_name October 5th 05 09:37 PM

Jan Böhme wrote:

no_name wrote:

Jan Böhme wrote:



With "google" there wouldn't be a theoretical chans to confuse the
everyday sense with the technical one. So why would you think
cricketeers would stop using it?


I thought the word in cricket was "googlie".



The noun, yes, which is what one would normally use in most instances.
But at least according to Jeremy's dictionary there is a corresponding
verb, "to google".

Jan Böhme


Ok, I went back through the thread & found the dictionary citation.

Now for something completely different ...

The definition doesn't actually tell what it is. It defines google in
terms of itself; "to have a 'googly' break".

What exactly makes a "break" googly?

Frank ess October 5th 05 10:29 PM

no_name wrote:
Jan Böhme wrote:

no_name wrote:

Jan Böhme wrote:



With "google" there wouldn't be a theoretical chans to confuse
the
everyday sense with the technical one. So why would you think
cricketeers would stop using it?

I thought the word in cricket was "googlie".



The noun, yes, which is what one would normally use in most
instances. But at least according to Jeremy's dictionary there is a
corresponding verb, "to google".

Jan Böhme


Ok, I went back through the thread & found the dictionary citation.

Now for something completely different ...

The definition doesn't actually tell what it is. It defines google
in
terms of itself; "to have a 'googly' break".

What exactly makes a "break" googly?


Googly a 'trick' ball bowled by a *leg spin bowler* which spins the
opposite way to the way the batsman is expecting [also *Bosie,
wrong'un*] -- _CRICKET EXPLAINED From Grubbers to Googlies-A
Beginner's Guide to the Great English Pastime_ Robert Eastaway, St,
Martin's Press 1992

It'd be remiss to pass through this thread witout mentioning Barney
Google and his goo- goo- googly eyes.

--
Frank ess


Jeremy Nixon October 5th 05 11:42 PM

no_name wrote:

Now for something completely different ...

The definition doesn't actually tell what it is. It defines google in
terms of itself; "to have a 'googly' break".

What exactly makes a "break" googly?


googly, n. Cricket. A ball which breaks from the off, though bowled with
apparent leg-break action.
b. attrib. or as adj., esp. in googly bowler, bowling.

--
Jeremy |

no_name October 6th 05 01:55 AM

Jeremy Nixon wrote:

no_name wrote:


Now for something completely different ...

The definition doesn't actually tell what it is. It defines google in
terms of itself; "to have a 'googly' break".

What exactly makes a "break" googly?



googly, n. Cricket. A ball which breaks from the off, though bowled with
apparent leg-break action.
b. attrib. or as adj., esp. in googly bowler, bowling.


Oh yeah, that explains everything!

So, apparently, it's a googly if it breaks a leg.

Jan Böhme October 6th 05 05:12 PM

no_name wrote:

So, apparently, it's a googly if it breaks a leg.


Not if it breaks _a_ leg. You see, in this particular instance, "leg"
is an adjective, and a synonym to "on".

I'm sure this made it a lot clearer.

Jan B=F6hme


Jan Böhme October 6th 05 05:28 PM


Nostrobino wrote:
"Jan B=F6hme" wrote in message
oups.com...

Nostrobino skrev:

Evolution of language is inevitable and
natural up to a point, but it's not evolution when a perfectly sensible
technical term is, through misunderstanding and/or ignorance, redefined=

in
a
nonsensical manner. Evolution implies improvement, not deterioration.


This is a misconception, both with respect to Darwinian evoloution of
species, and with respect to the evolution of language. Evolution does
_not_ ipmly "improvement", which is a pretty subjective term.
Evolution, both biological and, linguistic, is a combination of
stochastic change - what evolutionary biologists call "neutral drift" -
and adaptation.

And adaptation isn't the same thing as "improvement". One can easily
see the new meaning of "prime lens" as an adaptation to the fact that
today's photogs know less about the history of photography than
photographers uesd to.


I acknowledge the correction, but adaptation does imply improvement at le=

ast
with respect to the situation being adapted to. (Why else adapt?) I don't
see that using a term incorrectly, out of ignorance of that term's actual
meaning, can reasonably be described as "adaptation."


If the need for the original meaning no longer is there, and it
replaces a longer term (and "fix-focus" and its likes certainly are
longer than "prime") it could be considered as an adaptation.

But I agree that it is a bit doubtful. It might be better to think of
"prime" in the sense of "fix-focus" as neutral drift that, at one point
in time, was enabled because there no longer was enough negative
selection against it.

Jan B=F6hme


[email protected] March 6th 20 06:25 PM

Are primes brighter and sharper than wide open zooms
 
PRIME:

Correct, the meaning of the word "prime" is equivalent to "primary",

.... meaning the primary image forming lens in a photographic imaging system,

.... and can be any type of lens, including a zoom lens,

.... where a secondary or auxiliary lens is a non-image forming lens in the photographic imaging system.

It's all math and science.

Think of the mathematical scientific marker ( ' ) meaning "prime",

.... where if we were to draw out a schematic of our photographic imaging system,

.... the primary image forming lens would be marked with a ( ' ) prime indicator,

.... and supplemental or auxiliary lenses would be marked as such, as non-prime,

.... regardless of any of the lenses or lens assemblies having focal lengths that are fixed or single or multiple or variable or zoom.

__________

FFL:

Fixed Focal Length lens wise, almost no one has ever seen one ( a diopter, perhaps ... but not what we are talking about )?

"fixed focal length" lens assemblies have no focusing mechanism of their own, and depend on camera movement, or attachment to an adjustable bellows between the lens and the camera, in order to focus.

People are thinking of single focal length lenses, which do have internal focusing mechanisms, and can focus from infinity-ish to closer-ish.

So, no, even FFL is an inappropriate reference considering what people are really referring to - their 50mm f/1.4 camera-maker-branded lens assembly or something like that, which they would consider broken if it's focusing mechanism failed and left the lens assembly at any fixed focal length.

__________

JARGON:

I congratulate you on recoiling against alienating inaccurate and inappropriate jargon which confuses oldies and newbies alike.

And I join you in trying to get us all to stop using berserker jargon.

If we're going to invent meaningless jargon, just call things "thingamabob" and "whatsit".

Thanks for exploring this.

____________________

On Wednesday, September 28, 2005
at 11:57:22 AM UTC-4, Nostrobino wrote:
Zoom lenses ARE prime lenses,
notwithstanding the now-popular
misusage of "prime."

A prime lens is the camera lens as
distinct from some other lens or
lenticular device (close-up lens,
tele converter, etc.) used with it.
It has meant that since long before
zoom lenses became commonplace, and
therefore no need to use another
term to mean "non-zoom."

"Prime" is properly used in the
sense of primary, main, chief or
original--all dictionary definitions
for "prime."

There is NO dictionary definition
for "prime" which means fixed focal
length or single focal length, or
fixed or single anything else.

It would be nice if this nonsensical
misusage, which obviously is based on
someone's misunderstanding of the
term some years ago (and then spread
like cancer through the power of the
Internet) could be stamped out.
Surely "FFL" is at least as easy to
type as "prime" anyway, and there
never was any reason other than
shortness to replace "fixed focal
length" with the incorrect term.

N.


____________________
..


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