nose/eye fume irritation and cheap ventilation
 

wrote

But -- fumes? Why are there fumes of any sort, to start with? You do
not need to either vent fumes or suffer from fumes in any way if your
darkroom materials release no "fumes".

A processing system that contains no acid gives off no smell (or
'fumes'.) Non-acid fixers are cheap and easy to work with.

"Non-acid fixers..." That is more correct. I think the word alkaline
is to often used. The sodium thiosulfate and nothing more fix I used
was actually very slightly acid. It usually measured ph 6.8 .
Currently I'm working with Photographer's Formulary 60% ammonium
thiosulfate. I would class the concentrate as oderless, fumeless. At
a 1:31 dilution and in a tray, I can detect no oder. At this time, as
with the sodium, no additives are used. I use fix one-shot. I've
not yet measured the ph of the ammonium. I'd guess it's close
to neutral, ph7.
As I've stated I'm not affected by the fumes but am glad to be
done with the oder. You'd think Kodak, Ilford, or Agfa would have
made somthing of fumless, oderless processing decades ago.

My website has articles on this subject, under the 'technical' heading
of the table of contents.
_______________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits,
2219 Gerrard Street East, unit #1,
Toronto M4E 2C8 Canada.
---
voice 416-686-0326

http://www.heylloyd.com
_______________________________________

nose/eye fume irritation and cheap ventilation
 

Dan Quinn wrote:

Currently I'm working with Photographer's Formulary 60% ammonium
thiosulfate. I would class the concentrate as oderless, fumeless. At
a 1:31 dilution and in a tray, I can detect no oder.

I have to wonder if at 1:31 anyone would notice much of an oder even from
F-5 .

At this time, as
with the sodium, no additives are used. I use fix one-shot. I've
not yet measured the ph of the ammonium. I'd guess it's close
to neutral, ph7.
As I've stated I'm not affected by the fumes but am glad to be
done with the oder. You'd think Kodak, Ilford, or Agfa would have
made somthing of fumless, oderless processing decades ago.

nose/eye fume irritation and cheap ventilation
 

wrote:

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 06:11:06 +0000, Tom Phillips
wrote:

...
I have to wonder if at 1:31 anyone would notice much of an oder even from
F-5 .

...

jan2504 from Lloyd Erlick,

I doubt it. Only while mixing it, and diluting it.

In a practical vein, F-6 is entirely odorless. It's a conventional
acid fixer, it's cheap and pretty easy to mix. The ingredient mixing
order in the usual instructions for F6 advise adding the acid before
the alkali; if this is reversed, no odor (sulfur dioxide) is released
at all. I've done it both ways many times; changing the order of
mixing does not change the fixer.

F6 is great because if you omit the hardener (haven't used it in
decades; modern materials don't seem to need it, at least for hand
processing) then the acid is unnecessary (it's there to give the
hardener an acid environment). F6 turns into 'plain' fix pretty
easily.

I don't disagree. But hardener or not Rapid Fix is by far the "easiest" to
mix and use, especially for film where I want as fast a clearing time as
possible.

nose/eye fume irritation and cheap ventilation
 

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 06:11:06 +0000, Tom Phillips
wrote:

....
I have to wonder if at 1:31 anyone would notice much of an oder even from
F-5 .

....

jan2504 from Lloyd Erlick,

I doubt it. Only while mixing it, and diluting it.

In a practical vein, F-6 is entirely odorless. It's a conventional
acid fixer, it's cheap and pretty easy to mix. The ingredient mixing
order in the usual instructions for F6 advise adding the acid before
the alkali; if this is reversed, no odor (sulfur dioxide) is released
at all. I've done it both ways many times; changing the order of
mixing does not change the fixer.

F6 is great because if you omit the hardener (haven't used it in
decades; modern materials don't seem to need it, at least for hand
processing) then the acid is unnecessary (it's there to give the
hardener an acid environment). F6 turns into 'plain' fix pretty
easily.

regards,
--le
_______________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits,
2219 Gerrard Street East, unit #1,
Toronto M4E 2C8 Canada.
---
voice 416-686-0326

http://www.heylloyd.com
_______________________________________

nose/eye fume irritation and cheap ventilation
 

Tom Phillips wrote

Dan Quinn wrote:
Currently I'm working with Photographer's Formulary 60% ammonium
thiosulfate. I would class the concentrate as oderless, fumeless. At
a 1:31 dilution and in a tray, I can detect no oder.

I have to wonder if at 1:31 anyone would notice much of an oder even from
F-5 .

And that's single bath; 1:63 two bath. Per/liter of concentrate,
8x10s; 208, 160, 128, Kodak, Ilford, My usage.

The ratio for F-5 would be 1:7 or 1:15 two-bath; a 60% concentrate vs
a 15% working strength. A fluid volumn of 250ml at one or the other of
those ratios and fixers will fix one 8x10. I'm quite sure of that but
do have more testing to do. Dan

nose/eye fume irritation and cheap ventilation
 

wrote:


I've been sulfur dioxide free for about five years now!

Congratulations. :o

(A friend of mine was showing me his quickly dwindling stock of
Brovira grade two 16x20s. As he slid one out of the pack, he bent over
and sniffed deeply. He delivered a long dissertation on how grade two
smelled wonderful, much better than the other grades... I must admit
the smell of film takes me back to childhood, or at least early
teenagehood.)

olfactory memories -- always a pleasant psychology.

nose/eye fume irritation and cheap ventilation
 

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 19:33:09 +0000, Tom Phillips
wrote:

....
I don't disagree. But hardener or not Rapid Fix is by far the "easiest" to
mix and use, especially for film where I want as fast a clearing time as
possible.


jan2604 from Lloyd Erlick,

Yes, there's no doubt a ready made liquid concentrate is quick and
easy. I hate the attack-scent of rapid fixer, but there are non-acid
versions (low smell) on the market, too.

I have other issues with ready-made rapid fix. I don't have a car
(weirdo, I know...) (I live downtown in a city...) so lugging the jugs
of fixer is a bore (but I do borrow or rent a vehicle to buy hundred
pound sacks of sodium thiosulfate, so call me inconsistent). And I
really hate the rock-hard deposits that result from dribbles of rapid
fix. That's a small issue, though, because I try to clean up as I go
along in the darkroom. I should keep the rest of my life as well.

I guess it comes down to being in full control of what I do. Maybe I'm
a control freak (everyone in the darkroom talks about controlling
their processes...). But I like to have the ingredients at hand, to
vary what I make up to see what happens, to not have to go to the
photo store very often, and to have no substances in my face for any
reason at all.

I've been sulfur dioxide free for about five years now!

I also make up my own developers, for prints at least, and I rarely
visit the photo store. I didn't start out from a desire to go to the
store less often, but found I really liked it! I do have to pay them a
visit to get film... good thing it doesn't smell, at least not
powerfully.

(A friend of mine was showing me his quickly dwindling stock of
Brovira grade two 16x20s. As he slid one out of the pack, he bent over
and sniffed deeply. He delivered a long dissertation on how grade two
smelled wonderful, much better than the other grades... I must admit
the smell of film takes me back to childhood, or at least early
teenagehood.)

regards,
--le
_______________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits,
2219 Gerrard Street East, unit #1,
Toronto M4E 2C8 Canada.
---
voice 416-686-0326

http://www.heylloyd.com
_______________________________________

nose/eye fume irritation and cheap ventilation
 

On 25 Jan 2004 15:51:59 -0800, (Dan Quinn) wrote:

....
The ratio for F-5 would be 1:7 or 1:15 two-bath; a 60% concentrate vs
a 15% working strength. A fluid volumn of 250ml at one or the other of
those ratios and fixers will fix one 8x10. I'm quite sure of that but
do have more testing to do. Dan


jan2604 from Lloyd Erlick,

Do you actually use F5, Dan?

Why not F6 instead? F5 is more of a historical footnote, since F6 is
so similar but minus the strong odor. Attack odor, I'd call it. F5 is
a mucous membrane shredder, in my opinion. F5 would make me buy a
digital camera.

For me, the whole discussion of the various fixers quickly devolved to
sodium thiosulfate, sodium sulfite and water. F5 stinks, F6 is a great
alternative, but it does not need (I don't need, my materials don't
need...) hardener, so also doesn't need acid, etc, etc, so finally I
couldn't see why I would make up a fixer with any other components,
especially since I'm definitely a low-volume processor! High capacity
fixers like rapid-fixers are wasted on me, I never come close to using
them up. I'd rather have a low capacity fixer and replace it
frequently.

I suppose it could be said I went through a similar thought process
over FB print developer. Eventually I settled on what amounts to the
D23 of printing: the old Ansco 120 formula. I now just weigh out the
amount of dry ingredients necessary for a working solution of the
requisite volume for my purposes. It dissolves in seconds, and I no
longer store bottles of liquids I've prepared (Xtol, however, still
sits in those bottles ...). I like the way my paper works without
hardener. The selenium toner step goes better that way.

regards,
--le
_______________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits,
2219 Gerrard Street East, unit #1,
Toronto M4E 2C8 Canada.
---
voice 416-686-0326

http://www.heylloyd.com
_______________________________________

nose/eye fume irritation and cheap ventilation
 

wrote

Dan Quinn wrote:

The ratio for F-5 would be 1:7 or 1:15 two-bath; a 60% concentrate vs
a 15% working strength. A fluid volumn of 250ml at one or the other of
those ratios and fixers will fix one 8x10. I'm quite sure of that but
do have more testing to do. Dan

jan2604 from Lloyd Erlick,

Do you actually use F5, Dan?

I don't use F5. The above info is in response to Mr. Phillips post.
I'm too much a minimalist to mix that. Because of my one-shot usage
of all chemistry I feel free to use the very least complex of
chemistries.
I've put the very plain sodium thiosulfate on the shelf. Bottled and
dry it will likely, if still on the shelf, be in good shape years from now.
I won't last that long. I've some hypo-alum, nelson gold toner, and
another place or two where it can be used. It could once again be
my fix of choice.
The 60% ammonium thiosulfate is used diluted. Nothing is added. I will
though be adding an alkali and compare results. Dan

NO PRESERVATIVES ADDED

Why not F6 instead? F5 is more of a historical footnote, since F6 is
so similar but minus the strong odor. Attack odor, I'd call it. F5 is
a mucous membrane shredder, in my opinion. F5 would make me buy a
digital camera.

For me, the whole discussion of the various fixers quickly devolved to
sodium thiosulfate, sodium sulfite and water. F5 stinks, F6 is a great
alternative, but it does not need (I don't need, my materials don't
need...) hardener, so also doesn't need acid, etc, etc, so finally I
couldn't see why I would make up a fixer with any other components,
especially since I'm definitely a low-volume processor! High capacity
fixers like rapid-fixers are wasted on me, I never come close to using
them up. I'd rather have a low capacity fixer and replace it
frequently.

I suppose it could be said I went through a similar thought process
over FB print developer. Eventually I settled on what amounts to the
D23 of printing: the old Ansco 120 formula. I now just weigh out the
amount of dry ingredients necessary for a working solution of the
requisite volume for my purposes. It dissolves in seconds, and I no
longer store bottles of liquids I've prepared (Xtol, however, still
sits in those bottles ...). I like the way my paper works without
hardener. The selenium toner step goes better that way.
_______________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits,
2219 Gerrard Street East, unit #1,
Toronto M4E 2C8 Canada.
---
voice 416-686-0326

http://www.heylloyd.com
_______________________________________